Official Luthiers Forum!

I have a chance to put together a kit for a customer
I have 3 acoustics under my belt an 4,5, & 6 almost done.
I will be talking in Canadian dollars because that's what I am dealing with. If you need to convert just multiply by .7
my materials cost
stew mac kit Wilkinson S style ( w delivery) 750
finishing 100
customers budget 1500 to 2000
not a lot there for my labor
questions I have.
how long will it take to assemble and set up
stew mac has a much cheaper S style is it worth it?
there are 3 versions of the Wilkinson S
Can I do any interesting customizing on it without adding too much more money
considering spraying it myself. I've had success with using emtech coatings
but might consider another option. It's going to be a dark blue
any other observations please feel free to call me a fool I guess I'm will to go as low as $20/hr

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Mike McNerney

I usually assume around 100 hours of my hands on wood to get a guitar built and done. Remember to include setup and finishing time in your estimate.

And have you included tuners, electronics, strings, nut, saddle, and pick guard in your estimate?

I'm assuming building guitars isn't your day job. How well do you do staying on schedule? Remember that it is a hobby and often ends up being put on the back burner when family and job responsibilities come up. I've got three on the bench now that started 4-years ago and got derailed by a move halfway across the United States. I'm just now getting my act together to finish them up.

So, for example, winter is right around the corner. Will you be able to safely apply finish between October and May in your listed Canadian climate?

Often, we see a recommendation not to promise a build to somebody until you are sure you can meet the timeline. It can be safer to let your friend buy one that you've already finished, as it limits the risk to both of you. In his case, he can pass if it doesn't meet his expectations. In your case, he's not hounding you day and night to finish something you promised, and then griping and unhappy and refusing to pay because, "Come on, man, I can get a used Martin D18 for that price!"

The other reality is that most of us don't have $1k to $1.5k laying around. How certain are you that when the time comes, you will be able to collect without ruining the friendship or being left high and dry?

I've got a tele and a strat style electric on my to do list and your post made me go look at the Wilkinson kits at StuM. I've gathered the supplies for mine but I'm thinking about trying one of the kits too, maybe as a test run to a scratch build.

They look like they could be a fun build.

Some of the reviews said they could be built in a few hours as a lot of the harder work is done.

From the sound of it, I think you could meet your goals.

One review said there are videos of kit assembly.

I'd read the reviews and watch the vids and use that to gauge the time it would take you.

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Mike asked me to comment and I am happy to do so.

The only kit guitar that I ever built was a StewMac d*ead kit that was my first ever guitar. These kits look like a lot more stuff is already done for you which may help make the numbers work.

Generally speaking.... there is ALWAYS scope creep in these kinds of projects. The unanticipated stuff that just has to be done anyway.

Also generally speaking there is not much to be made money wise unless you can control your costs and be absolutely sure of all that you have to do. So I see this as risky and sorry to be negative.

When I was building two well known, life long professional luthiers sat me down and made me do an accurate cost accounting of what I spent in terms of coin and time to build a Heshtone guitar. Typically it was a 140 hour slog and I tended to buy the nicest wood and stuff including cases that I could find. So my costs were very high.

We found out that with what I was charging back then I was only making about $2 an hour building. That led to a dramatic price increase with some models the Black Tiger in particular being priced at $7,500 back in 2010ish.

But the lesson was that more than half of my actual costs including "opportunity costs" for what I could not do when I was building I was not being honest with myself.

I would feel better about this activity if you or someone had done it before a couple of times and we had more data on time to assemble, what kind of finishing and of course an accounting of every nut and bolt, every screw, the case, etc that you have to purchase.

My gut is that $20 and hour may be difficult to do though because again guitar building is always an exercise in scope creep where the project seems to expand regardless of if we want it to or not.

Mike is in Canada too so shipping may be significant for things he has to source. Lots to consider.

I never did commissions and refused flat out to do them. It always seemed risky as all hell to be selling something that didn't even exist yet. Stuff happens, people get sick, lose jobs, divorces, covid, etc. A lot can happen in 6 months or a year that can take a friendship and turn it south when money is to be exchanged....

Instead I built what I wanted to build and hung them in my repair shop and people invariably wanted to try them, called the next day wanting to bring the wife by to see it and then they often bought. They knew what they were getting, I knew what I was selling and I never had a single issue or dispute with this business model.

With this said if you do build for others people do contact us and ask us to build instruments when they find out what we do. I have had many requests for commissions including some weird ass 9 string that in reality I was likely the 6th stop on the guy's list asking people to build it and he had been turned down by everyone including me.

Lastly this is not a building project although you may see it that way. It's going to be a tool for a musician and they will have an expectation that it plays great, sounds great and is a joy to interact with. So it's not just assembly there will be extensive set-up and maybe even fret work such as a fret dress. An "S" style guitar is a Strat and the player will want low action that requires decent fret work.

You will need to be able to do maybe some fret dressing, nut cutting, set-up stuff, intonation, minor electronics and understand neck relief and how to interact with the truss rod for the set-up.

With all these things said sure it could be done, I'm not sure on if $20 an hour could be had even for someone like me who works on guitars every day though.

So Mike a lot to consider. If you think it's fun and are willing to take some risk, there is risk here great. I would avoid any customization that would make it unsalable to others though just in case the deal goes south when you are already invested in it. If you are risk adverse and not fairly skilled with issues of how a Strat is set-up I might avoid it until I had more experience.

thank you, Truck John, Brian & Hesh. You answered in a different direction than I expected and that is a good thing. Of course I am one of those people who takes a longer than it should. However if the customer goes for it I will too which means accepting the low hourly rate. I am confident I can do the shiny solid color finish and will stick with that part of the customizing. I'll post (probably in the new year)
when it's done/delivered. cheers from the great white north

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Mike McNerney

Cool, have fun Mike that's the important part.

Mike, I am late to this game but still want to make a couple of comments. First, the Wilkison S kit seems to be a box of parts to build what is commonly called a "partscaster". Fender style guitars are ideal for this type of project because of Leo's genius, relatively little skill is needed to put together a playable guitar.

You get a fully built neck, frets installed, ready to screw onto the body. You get an unfinished two piece (it has a joint down the cener) alder body, fully routed, a loaded pick guard with two single coils and a bridge humbucker, all the hardware (tuners, trem, and so on).

The first big concern I have is finishing the body. Lets be honest, finishing is one of the hardest things for a home builder to do well. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask if you really can lay down a flawless high gloss dark blue finish. What does your customer expect for their two grand? Alder does not need pore filling so that is one step you don't need to worry about but in my book 3 acoustics may not be enough experience.

SM gives you the choice of rosewood or maple fretboards. Rosewood does not need finishing, maple almost always does. The way fender does it is to finish over the frets and scrape the tops back, you have a very small window to do any fret leveling and dressing (assume it will be necessary).

You asked about cheaper S kits (from StewMac or anyone else). There are a number of these PacRim its of various shapes ans sizes. They are pretty much similar, inexpensive hardware and pickups, mass produced bodies. There is also one fairly good kit available in Canada from Precision Kits, it comes without hard ware and lets you select your own. You can also buy bodies and necks from a number of sources (Warmoth, Guitar Fetish) and customize to your specs and requirements. In my opinion you get what you pay for.

You ask about time to do the assembly, frankly there are not that many hours involved but it will be spead out over a fairly long period of time. Lets say your finish consists of a couple of coats of sealer, six or so coats of color, six or so more of clear, level sanding between coats, wet sanding and buff and the end, plus the work on the neck, all the masking and clean up of your gun,....... Ten to twenty hours. Assembly another ten or twenty if it goes smoothly, setup and so on. The loaded pick guard means you shouldn't need to do any soldering or wiring, add some time if you do.

Do not underestimate the importance of a perfect setup. Your customer is paying you for the best playing guitar they can buy, don't disappoint. I rarely see an aftermarket neck that doesn't need some fretwork, and don't expect the action to be perfect when you bolt it together.

You ask about customizing it, that of course is the beauty of a parts caster, you can do anything you want to personalize it. Most kits come with a basic level of hardware, you can change to "better" or different color or brands or style. You can change pickups, the sound of an electic guitar is the pickups. You can put a logo or inlay or decal on the head to "make it your own". Of course you can finish any way you want. Those are all things you should discuss with your customer, it will his or her guitar after all.

One other thing to think about with a parts guitar is that they almost never will sell for what you have in them for parts. In fact many times people will "part them out" rather than resell intact, usually the pups are the most valuable item.

While calculating your return on investment, factor in any tools or other things you might need to buy. Fretting and nut files, setup tools, spray gun, soldering station. Don't bury these costs in one guitar, but you do need tools.

I don't want to be discouraging but you do need to be very realistic, particularly if you want to make a profit. I have assembled several parts guitars for some folks, they were looking for something very specific and I was able to furnish it, I doubt that I ever really made money on these but its fun to do. Good luck with your project, keep track of costs and your time, but mostly enjoy the process.

To add to the above discussion, the dilemma of how much to charge for a given piece of work has troubled me for a long time. I have used a variety of systems over the years. I built a few guitars and gave them to family and friends. I felt honored when they would actually play them. I had a couple of people ask me to build specific guitars - a left handed 355, chambered les paul style, some different acoustics. I pretty much arbitrarily decided to take the cost of materials, double that and that would cover my time. I didn't know if it did or not, but it was easy to estimate before starting and document while I did the build.

I do the same thing with repairs and setups. I'm the only guy around who can do this work, local musicians bring me their guitars to fix or adjust, I frequently get paid in swag, a bottle of wine, cd's, tickets to a show. I don't need or want the hassle of income that I have to report, I'm flattered when someone trusts me with their cherished old friends.

A couple of years ago a local musician whose guitars I had worked on approached me and said they were putting together a Pink Floyd tribute band and he needed a "David Gilmour" strat. He didn't really want a clone but it needed to sound like Gilmour's iconic black strat. I basically had an open check book to assemble this thing, I got to use the very best parts. When he asked me what it was going to cost him for my work I said "two tickets to the gig".

We have seen them four times now,

Sometimes I charge them an arm and a leg
after I make them sit there and beg
sometimes I give them away for free
if they're broke enough and nice to me
it all depends on my mood, you see
as for making a living selling my stuff
I'm afraid I'm too lazy and that makes it rough
because I never let clients give me any guff
or push me around acting all smart and tough
mostly I make sure I charge them enough
that they don't treat it like a pile of marshmallow fluff.
Ellie Erickson, May 2008

Okay, here comes the grumpy guy with some harsh truth. A kit is NOT a build. If you didn't shape the neck or the body - it's not a build. Simple as that. You are assembling a kit. You are using a bunch of luthier skills to finish it, assemble it and set it up according to the client's needs and desires. I do it all the time (since 1979) and I cannot bring myself to call them a build. I assemble, I put together, I make it cool as hell - but I don't build it. I occasionally build, and I charge even more for it.

Now all that said, a kit build never sells for much more than the price of the parts. Yes - you put a lot of labor, skill and artistry into it. You can charge the client for that, too. And tell them up front that if and when they decide to sell it - the market will not pay more for it than the cost of the parts. I speak the truth drawn from decades of experience.

Still - go for it, because it is fun, it is fulfilling, and because you get to enjoy the clients satisfaction at finally playing a nicely done guitar made just for them. Just don't call it a build. Have a great New Year, okay?

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince