Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:20 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:47 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 am
Posts: 1289
Always great to see someone else get involved. It’s a fantastic hobby for many of us. I’m on....14 kinda lost count... I’m just barely getting to the point that I’m proud of my builds ha. The mistakes I make are getting so that the mistakes are better than my first effort on the early ones... TONS of places to improve... just enjoying the process!!!

Have fun. Don’t get stressed about stuff and finish what you start.

You’ve got this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These users thanked the author SnowManSnow for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:07 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:16 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 997
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I’ve built for eighteen years and helped teach a class for four. I always tell the students that:

1) the worse sounding guitar is the one in a box in pieces in your garage that you didn’t finish.

2) That first guitar will probably play and sound better than that $1,200 Martin or Gibson you currently think is the ne plus ultra. You are going to spend 100+ hours on it. They can’t spend more than 25. The time and care WILL pay off.

3) it will be full of cosmetic mistakes that will only bother you. You will likely NEED to build a second just because you KNOW the next one will be flawless.

4) Leave the mass spectrometer, electron scanning microscope and 1200 year old spruce at home. The Internet is full discussions from top luthiers who have built hundreds of guitars (and people pretending to be) chasing minute refinements. Reading about how modern jazz masters use upper extension triads to best reharmonize a progression won’t help you if you’ve never played a single note on a guitar. Likewise for building a guitar. Just build a tried and true design. That’s what Martin does, and people seem pretty pleased with them.

5) It is NOT a cheap way of getting your dream guitar. If you love it you will build dozens more and have to explain to your wife why you NEED a $300 binding jig. If you don’t, you won’t finish the first.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



These users thanked the author rlrhett for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:09 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:46 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 4416
But you really don't need a $300 binding jig. The beauty of the Compiano book is he shows inexpensive methods to do many of the things factories turn into million dollar processes.
Many of the tools that are nice to have you can live without. My wife saw me "testing out" a couple of small brass violin maker's planes I bought off eBay and asked if I was "playing" or actually doing something constructive with them (I was playing). At the prices they usually retail for I felt it wasn't worth the use I would get from them. For the past 40 years I got by without them. These Chinese planes are quite a bit cheaper but appear nicely made and work fairly well (I haven't sharpened them yet but they plane spruce easily).
Also materials need not be expensive. Many fine instruments have been built with run of the mill materials, when careful selection of those materials is done by a knowledgeable person. The most important part of the guitar (soundboard) can be purchased inexpensively if a few cosmetic flaws are tolerated.
But most of us (myself included) are addicted and overspend on tools and materials.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:52 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3682
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
meddlingfool wrote:
Honest advice? Prepare yourself for disappointment. The likelihood of building your ultimate guitar first time out is pretty slim. Building good guitars is a process of accumulated experience, being able to tailor the sound especially so.

That being said, don’t be discouraged. If you’re already a good woodworker you’re miles ahead of the game. But you’ll need to build a few to have a baseline to adjust from.

I would suggest ditching the J-200 style for a standard dread. It’s really easy to make a jumbo sound woolly. And since you have two dreads already, you’ll have something in hand to make realistic comparisons to...


In my experience of building jumbos, it's probably better to leave the top and brace on the thick side. That way you retain the highs. A jumbo is so big that there's ample room for the top to move as the string vibrates, so no need to make it light and thin.

Just by using a standard Martin style bridge improves the sound quite a bit, that J200 bridge is very heavy.

Also, epoxy fill covers a multitude of binding gaps, cosmetic blemishes, and whatnot. Highly recommended!

Speaking of electron scanning microscope... here's the one I used to use at the university...

Image

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:58 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:19 am
Posts: 670
He he, we have them where I work as well.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:35 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 am
Posts: 1289
I notice from the topic of the thread you’re after a particular “type of sound”. Imo just get it built and TAKE NOTES. Note the thicknesses, brace heights/ widths ... all of it.
If you’re patient and willing to stay in the learning curve you’ll love building guitarS


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These users thanked the author SnowManSnow for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:07 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:25 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 68
First name: Terry
Well, it took 10 weeks of calendar time to get it built, but it's done and was used this weekend for the first time in a live setting. Interestingly, of the ~150 hours I spent on it I would bet 100 of those were making templtes, jigs and molds.

Anyhow, it looks great, feels and plays great and can handle the hardest playing i could dish out. The problem is that I need a lot more fullness and low end to get where I'm going.

The second one has the head neck and heel blocks glued in and top and bottom braced. Looking to close the box in the next few days.

If anyone has suggestions based on J-200 builds I'd be happy to hear. I did already get some good input on another thread, but wanted to close this one out with a picture.

As far as the materials and such, this is what I ended up going with:

- Adi Top ~.010
- IRW Back and sides ~.095
- Spruce bracing
- Mohogany Neck
- Cocobolo Bridge, fret board and headstock plate
- All wood rosette (various species)
- Gotoh 510
- Martin Retro .13's


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:28 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 68
First name: Terry
Finally figured out why the photo wouldn't post...


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:23 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 319
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Terry that's a humongous photo of a big accomplishment! It's a beauty. Now you are hooked. Nice job!

Ken

_________________
Why be normal?



These users thanked the author Ken Nagy for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 6075
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Well, that sure looks good, especially for a first build!

Did you get the Gore/Gilet books? They contain all the information you need to get the fullness you seek...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:07 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 68
First name: Terry
I bought the somogyi books and read them a few times. Does the gore filet cover different theory?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:58 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 6075
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The Somogyi books I found to be less helpful and short on actual data. The Gore/Gilet books are jam packed with facts and figures regarding the physics at play with acoustic guitars. In particular, the modal tuning was for me a game changer. So, with your guitar, and any guitar, whether you’re doing it consciously or not, the top, the back, and the air chamber have resonant frequencies. These frequencies can be measured, and intentionally changed resulting in dramatic shifts to the tone and responsiveness of your guitar.

The books contain suggestions for what those resonances should be for different sized instruments. Then you can play with these numbers to make your guitars do what you want them too...

The math and physics are horribly complex, but applying the knowledge is fairly straightforward...



These users thanked the author meddlingfool for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:50 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:28 am 
Online
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 4419
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
meddlingfool wrote:
The Somogyi books I found to be less helpful and short on actual data. The Gore/Gilet books are jam packed with facts and figures regarding the physics at play with acoustic guitars. In particular, the modal tuning was for me a game changer. So, with your guitar, and any guitar, whether you’re doing it consciously or not, the top, the back, and the air chamber have resonant frequencies. These frequencies can be measured, and intentionally changed resulting in dramatic shifts to the tone and responsiveness of your guitar.

The books contain suggestions for what those resonances should be for different sized instruments. Then you can play with these numbers to make your guitars do what you want them too...

The math and physics are horribly complex, but applying the knowledge is fairly straightforward...

And they're half price from SM with SM membership.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola



These users thanked the author Colin North for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:50 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:29 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4269
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
your guitar looks nice
now for some advice
The first one is seldom your best one. A few things that you need to work with are
A weight
knowing where to loose weight and not hurt structure
B Gluing
keeping the joint pristine helps with energy transfer
C understanding bracing
Braces influence the energy transfer in the top. So you got the first one done , don't make a lot of changes on the next one. You need to learn
and understand the bracing structure and what it can do. Learning to voice a top can take years.. It took me about 14 guitars to get it right.
D it can be done keep notes learn the cause and effect of what you do,

I have seen and heard great guitars that followed and broke the rules. So enjoy the journey. You will learn much more from a failure than success

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:30 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 68
First name: Terry
Gore/Gilet is one the way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Building a Cannon
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:08 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 4816
Location: Virginia
I've not read the Somogyi build book but I read his first one on the philosophy of building and found that it was a great book to read but didn't really give away too many secrets on building a guitar. But I think it's a great accompaniment to the G/G books of hard knocks science. Somogyi's book is sort of like alternative medicine while the G/G books are lab tested and rigorous. Each one compliments the other. It depends on whether you are an engineer or a poet. But in either case the engineer could use a bit of poetry in his build as could the poet use a bit of engineering. Even if you build according to the G/G books you are going to throw in a bit of your own into it and that's where the Somogyi philosophy comes in. G/G tells you what to do while Somogyi shows you what to do. That's my take on it anyway.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:21 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ballbanjos, Colin North, Matthew Jenkins, mudgeek and 31 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com