Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:21 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:22 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 1161
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
There has got to be a better way. I rip these long, push them through the band saw at an angle, then tediously cut the kerfs in a little sled with a mark 3/16 from the blade. Back and forth a couple of hundred times.

Commercially available, they were way expensive. More than ebony binding or an ebony fingerboard. For a 1/4” basswood strip mechanically kerfed!

Am I missing something? I’ve seen these elaborate steam punk jigs. Is there a simple jig that can eliminate some eye strain and mental fatigue? A source that I can get kerfed lining at a reasonable price (~$15 for a guitar, for eg?) Is there not a better way?

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:26 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7219
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
LMI's linings are very nice and not that expensive. Or pony up the 200$ minimum order and get a batch from Gurian. I'm about to do that myself...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:43 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:25 pm
Posts: 1954
First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Oops, I posted to the wrong thread. Sorry!

_________________
George :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:34 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
I make mine on the tablesaw. I use the 7 1/4 inch diablo blades and stack 3 of them on the arbor with spacers in between. I gang the strips about 10 at a time so every time I pass them through the saw I'm cutting 30 kerfs. I make reverse kerf linings this way. If I want triangular linings I will then resaw them on the bandsaw with a jig and have kerfed linings and tentalones (the off fall). Much quicker than bandsawing them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:57 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1445
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
Here's what I'm using. As I recall it takes about 80 seconds to run a piece and it will make standard and reverse linings.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXhLX6M9FI



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post: Clinchriver (Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:58 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:31 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 2246
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Nice Michael! The good thing about Gurian, is that I think you can mix and match stuff to get to 200. I basically just dumpster dive there!

_________________
Pat


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:44 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1445
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
pat macaluso wrote:
Nice Michael! The good thing about Gurian, is that I think you can mix and match stuff to get to 200. I basically just dumpster dive there!


I wish I wasn't on the other side of the water, I'd go with you...



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post: Pmaj7 (Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:04 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:48 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 2422
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
Even with a better way, how much money would you actually save making it yourself over buying it already made and how much is your time worth? You could do a guitar for $20.48 using StewMac basswood traditional kerfed lining or go whole hog and pay $26.88 to do a guitar with mahogany reverse kerfed lining. If you are willing to buy at least 8 pieces at LMI, you could do two guitars for $17.96 or $21.68 each. Or better still, at RC Tonewoods those two types would set you back $15.80 and $15.96 for one guitar's worth.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter



These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post: Blacklotus (Mon May 28, 2018 3:25 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:53 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1831
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Martin Guitarmaker's Connection: $16 per set (plus shipping)
Blues Creek Guitars: $16 per set of triangular, $16.25 per set fat/triangular, $16.95 per set reverse kerf (plus shipping)

I suspect those prices are not what would be paided for 50, 80, or a few hundred pieces.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:50 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 1161
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Thank you all. I don't know why when I went to LMI's site I thought the lining would be nearly $40 per guitar. That was several years ago, and I'm embarrassed to say I never checked back. Actually, at 32" per strip I would only need 4 per guitar. Not 8. That seems more reasonable.

I'll check out Blues Creek. That seems pretty close to the ~$15 per gutiar I was hoping for.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:52 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 1161
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Michaeldc wrote:
Here's what I'm using. As I recall it takes about 80 seconds to run a piece and it will make standard and reverse linings.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXhLX6M9FI


THAT is the "steam punk" jig I was referring to! It is awesome beyond words. Unfortunately my brain can't process all that is going on there. That is more jig than I can pull off. Maybe I can get one of the master jig builders at the school to make one like that.



These users thanked the author rlrhett for the post: Michaeldc (Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:36 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:18 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
There are a few things on a guitar which I just cannot stand to do myself and have no problem farming them out. Linings are one of them! I will make my own solid linings but purchase kerfed, what a PIA it is making those.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:06 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:12 pm
Posts: 3290
First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
rlrhett wrote:
Michaeldc wrote:
Here's what I'm using. As I recall it takes about 80 seconds to run a piece and it will make standard and reverse linings.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXhLX6M9FI


THAT is the "steam punk" jig I was referring to! It is awesome beyond words. Unfortunately my brain can't process all that is going on there. That is more jig than I can pull off. Maybe I can get one of the master jig builders at the school to make one like that.


That is a cool jig to be sure but I don't see it as being practical unless you are making a ton of linings. By the time you buy the materials make the jig and work all the bugs out you will have a lot of time invested plus the cost of the materials. Then you still need to process the raw stock to the dimensions that fit in the machine. Then you have a large jig to store when not in use. . . I think many of us would be better off buying lining than making a jig like that.

I understand where you are coming from though. On one hand linings for a guitar are not a lot of money but on the other hand, that is a lot to pay for what it actually is. . . this is why I started using laminated linings; I discovered all the other benefits after I started doing it. Of course, it takes a longer. There is no free ride.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.



These users thanked the author Bryan Bear for the post: Michaeldc (Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:23 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:19 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
When I make linings I try to make enough for a year or more. It is a simple set up, but still, when I want to use them I want to have them on hand.
I am also experimenting with linings made out of wacky wood. They are easier to make and like the linings made by Ryan will bend in both directions. I know some are skeptical of the grain orientation, but it is a relatively large gluing area and a relatively small stress.
I can usually find enough scrap wood to cut the strips from, so it's mostly my time I'm wasting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:22 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1445
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
Bryan Bear wrote:
rlrhett wrote:
Michaeldc wrote:
Here's what I'm using. As I recall it takes about 80 seconds to run a piece and it will make standard and reverse linings.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXhLX6M9FI


THAT is the "steam punk" jig I was referring to! It is awesome beyond words. Unfortunately my brain can't process all that is going on there. That is more jig than I can pull off. Maybe I can get one of the master jig builders at the school to make one like that.


That is a cool jig to be sure but I don't see it as being practical unless you are making a ton of linings. By the time you buy the materials make the jig and work all the bugs out you will have a lot of time invested plus the cost of the materials. Then you still need to process the raw stock to the dimensions that fit in the machine. Then you have a large jig to store when not in use. . . I think many of us would be better off buying lining than making a jig like that.

I understand where you are coming from though. On one hand linings for a guitar are not a lot of money but on the other hand, that is a lot to pay for what it actually is. . . this is why I started using laminated linings; I discovered all the other benefits after I started doing it. Of course, it takes a longer. There is no free ride.


I really enjoy making jigs and fixtures! Whether it's practical or makes sence financially..? It's the joy of figuring out a cooler way to do something.



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:27 pm) • Bryan Bear (Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:01 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:25 pm
Posts: 1954
First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
pat macaluso wrote:
Nice Michael! The good thing about Gurian, is that I think you can mix and match stuff to get to 200. I basically just dumpster dive there!


Michaeldc wrote:
I wish I wasn't on the other side of the water, I'd go with you...


I heard that he was retiring and wondered if the business was going to continue. Pat, if they're still open and you're up for company, I'd make that run with you. [:Y:]

_________________
George :-)



These users thanked the author George L for the post: pkdz (Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:12 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:12 am
Posts: 1170
First name: Rodger
Last Name: Knox
City: Baltimore
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21234
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I used to endure the "death of a thousand cuts" making my own reverse kerfed linings on a bandsaw. (There's about 1000 kerfs on a dred.)
I now use solid laminated linings, and will not go back. The benefits (stiffer rims, easier inletting braces) are worth the extra gluing time.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:31 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:20 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Danny
Last Name: Vincent
A few photos. Pretty self explanatory.

I start by thicknessing the boards and putting a 3/8 rounder on the 2 outside edges. Then rip off the 2 outside edges. And go from there! It's done on a sled with an index pin the thickness of the kerf.
Attachment:
rsz_100_1466.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_1100_1467.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1468.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_1100_1470.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1473.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1475.jpg


I now make them thick enough that they require bending in a side bender. It is the next best thing to a solid lining.

Cheers! Hope this helps!

Likely make 40 in 2 or 3 hours


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



These users thanked the author DannyV for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:59 pm) • Michaeldc (Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:35 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7219
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Sweet!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 2422
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
George L wrote:
pat macaluso wrote:
Nice Michael! The good thing about Gurian, is that I think you can mix and match stuff to get to 200. I basically just dumpster dive there!


Michaeldc wrote:
I wish I wasn't on the other side of the water, I'd go with you...


I heard that he was retiring and wondered if the business was going to continue. Pat, if they're still open and you're up for company, I'd make that run with you. [:Y:]


Gurian did retire and he sold the business around the beginning of this year. It was bought by Kevin Almeida (who worked for Gurian) and his wife Cynthia who are operating the business in the same location on the barge. Very nice people.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter



These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post: George L (Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:31 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:46 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
DannyV wrote:
A few photos. Pretty self explanatory.

I start by thicknessing the boards and putting a 3/8 rounder on the 2 outside edges. Then rip off the 2 outside edges. And go from there! It's done on a sled with an index pin the thickness of the kerf.
Attachment:
rsz_100_1466.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_1100_1467.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1468.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_1100_1470.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1473.jpg

Attachment:
rsz_100_1475.jpg


I now make them thick enough that they require bending in a side bender. It is the next best thing to a solid lining.

Cheers! Hope this helps.

Likely make 40 in 2 or 3 hours


Very crafty Mr. Vincent!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:26 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Danny and I do something very similar.
A couple of other things I have tried is using a roman ogee profile, leaving the unkerfed portion thicker and then running it through the drum sander to thin it out and make it more flexible. The ogee makes them a little more decorative. Also when running the strips through the tablesaw I press them down to the table with a board over top to insure they don't ride up on the blades.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:35 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 2246
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
George L wrote:
pat macaluso wrote:
Nice Michael! The good thing about Gurian, is that I think you can mix and match stuff to get to 200. I basically just dumpster dive there!


Michaeldc wrote:
I wish I wasn't on the other side of the water, I'd go with you...


I heard that he was retiring and wondered if the business was going to continue. Pat, if they're still open and you're up for company, I'd make that run with you. [:Y:]
He has sold the business to a long time Gurian alum. Fortunately it looks like things will continue the same as before.

Yes George, let's go raid the pile sometime!

_________________
Pat


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:56 am
Posts: 56
First name: Theo
Last Name: Delaca
City: Fbks
State: Ak
Zip/Postal Code: 99712
Country: USA
Rather than a mark on my sled, I have a little tooth that grabs the last cut (piece of safety pin bent into a staple that matched my band saw kerf), also a forward stop. It goes pretty fast, muscle memory does the trick and not so tedious as looking at the mark, it might not be 80 seconds, but just a couple minutes a piece. I buy them too and sometimes use solid linings, but every once in a while I want to cut some.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:51 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5398
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Index pin on a bandsaw type jig, one at a time, music of my choice on loud, devote 2/3 hours of an afternoon to making 6 or 7 sets at a time.
At least I know they'll be better than what I've found commercially.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Gary Davis, Treenewt and 55 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com