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Hey, thanks everyone. I appreciate the help, and you have shown me some wonderful, useful techniques to try. When I took these pictures, the angle of the neck was close to where it needed to be for height above the soundboard, or at least I think so. Then I found the center line was way off. So I made an adjustment, went too far, and it now the joint looks much worse than the photos. Oh well, I'll keep sanding and flossing, and see how it goes. So many things went wrong with this first one, in spite of my best efforts. Just too much to understand all at once, I suppose. The learning curve on this is steep and long, at least for me. And I am also seeing the problem of making my first one out of ash, so I am now flossing ash end grain to set my first neck. Oh well.

Still, it's good to be back!

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I always thought that the measure of a builder, at least for the first few, was how well you overcome the problems encountered alone the way. We have all been through what you are experiencing.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Joe, thanks for the encouragement. I have overcome many obstacles on this project. Had a list at one time. Started making two at once, which resulted in 5 tops, 4 rosettes, multiple backs, both guitars bound then cut away and rebound, the list goes on and on. I finally stopped the second one, concentrating on getting one done. So far, I am satisfied that at least appearance wise, everything on this one is as close to perfect as I can get it. Well, until now.

I did work on the joint today, and it is very close to where it needs to be both in angle and alignment. unfortunately, it now looks worse than ever. I have a gap on one corner big enough to stick a thumbnail in. It may be functional at this point, but it looks terrible. I will get the appearance better. Just have to keep going.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

The three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle of correct neck set, yaw and a gapless joint is one of the most finnicky stages, especially for your first couple guitars. Hang in there - it gets easier with experience and as you continue building you'll probably find a variety of ways to tweak your earlier processes to make things as easy as possible for yourself when you get to this stage.

You had a question about why not having the guitar end up with a saddle much higher than normal. The answer is that you are messing with a factor that has a major influence on the tone of the guitar. High saddles tend to make loud but unpleasant sounding guitars.
I liked all the advice about how to reshape the trouble area on your neck joint. You might also find it useful to make precise, thin, angled shims to eliminate the air gaps. In reshaping an area it is sometimes helpful to add a little wood as well as remove it.

Well, the frustration continues to build. The neck is getting shorter, so much that the end of the fret board is now even with the edge of the sound hole, meaning the 12th fret no longer lines up with the end. And, still no closer to a nice looking joint. Big wide gaps all around, except for a few spots. So far, everything I've tried has failed, and I am getting to the point where I will have to face a big decision. It seems at this point I have three options:

1. Remove the fret board to line the 12th fret up where it needs to be. The gap for the nut will be too narrow, so I will either widen the slot, or remove the head stock veneer and make a new one, if I still have room.

2. Make spacers out of ebony, glue them at the neck joint, and hopefully get them to set flush and with any luck it will look intentional.

3. Ditch this neck and start over with another one.

I think No. 2 might be the best bet, has anyone done this? Is it an acceptable practice, or will it be viewed as an amateur hack job? I do have a mahogany neck that I started for No. 2, but I really wanted this first one to be all curly ash, as it is such a unique piece of wood.

Thoughts and suggestions much appreciated...

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Yes glue shims/fillers if necessary if building guitars is to be your hobby --- I suggest that you get this neck so it looks acceptible and most importantly that it is set in away that yields good playability and sound. Now is the time to understand the construction geometry and the cause and affect of your adjustments. The lessons learned will serve you well - starting with a different neck in hopes it works out better in my opinion accomplishes nothing -- Hesh's tutor is one of the good ones so I won't inject my system elements. He has not given "tidbits to try" -- its a system follow all the steps don't pick and choose and you will get good results.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

There is a saying - "The enemy of Good is Better". Striving for perfection is not a bad thing. However, it can if carried too far become an obsession and an impediment to learning. Sometimes we have to accept that our first attempts are not going to be flawless, do our best and move on.
There is nothing that says the 12th, 13th, or 14th fret has to line up with the edge of the body. Personally I wouldn't fret it - just make the joint reasonably good and adjust the bridge position slightly to compensate. Getting the correct neck angle is more important than having a perfectly gapless joint. I would get the heel/body joint tight (with the correct neck angle), shim or fill under the fret board if necessary,and not worry about where the 12th fret lands. I think that would be less noticeable than ebony spacers.
My first guitars only took a couple of weeks to complete. They are some of the ugliest on the planet. But they sure did sound good when I played that first chord.Don't let the woodworking get in the way of the lutherie.

Moving the neck back into the body won't hurt just make sure your bridge pin holes will still fall on the bridge plate.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Yup that's critical - you don't want to finally finish the guitar, drill the bridge pin holes and find you've missed the bridge plate. So measure carefully. Presuming you have the space to work with, it isn't the end of the world if your body join is a little back from the 12th fret. It'll look a lot better than having a gappy heel.

And then move on and make your next guitar, which will be an improvement in every way. Onwards and upwards!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^^^^This! I'm going to print this out and put it right above my bench.

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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
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Today I finally declared my neck done, far as I can. This is a milestone for me, a major hurdle to get past. To be honest, it is not perfect. But at this stage, I realize how much better and easier it would have been if I had known more while building the box. So in a way, I set myself up to play catch up without even realizing it. That increased the difficulty for me, and was the last straw that had me put this thing down for 2 years. But now I think I am back on track.

I appreciate all the advice, it was very helpful. I really like Hesh's tutorial, and the idea that it is a process, don't pick and choose. Unfortunately, that was not an option because (1) my heel cap was installed, (2) fretboard was installed, and (3) truss rod was installed. In the end, I cut off the heel cap, made an angled sanding block, carved away enough material to give myself a smaller edge to work with, and eventually got it as close as I care to on my first guitar.

For the heel, on the bass side, the one most seen, the fit is perfect to my eyes. On the treble side, there is a small gap remaining at the top, at the binding. This gap measures around .002", and is about 1/4" long. I can live with that. For the fretboard, the gaps now appear to be narrow enough that I can fill them with glue and sawdust when the neck is installed, and they will all but disappear.

As for extending the neck away from the 12th fret at the binding, looks pretty good except the end of the fretboard now sticks over the edge of the sound hole. I may or may not fix this, will just require a slight reshaping of the curve at the end of the board.

The final height projected over the saddle point turned out to be 23/64", or 0.359". That seems to be too high by .017", but since I have not yet made the bridge, I see no reason for this one that I cannot make the bridge .020" or so thicker and keep the right saddle height.

So, I wish it were better, but for No. 1, I am declaring this good enough, and done. No. 2 is not as far along, but does have the truss rod installed, so I will have some of the same issues. But when I get to No. 3, things will be different!

So thanks again for all the help and encouragement, I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and as soon as I get the new heel cap in place, I'm looking forward to starting on the finish.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Fretboard end over the soundhole is just fine. Lot's are done that way on purpose.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

You are good to go. If I understand the math correctly you will not need to make a thicker bridge, if anything perhaps a bit thinner. Your projection is just about 3/8th inch over the saddle. Typical thickness for a bridge is 3/8th and typical projection is about 1-2/32nd over your bridge height. But you will be fine.

What wood is that fretboard?

Thanks Steve, i was hoping someone would comment on that. I could cut it back just a bit, I prefer it that way, but I really like the proportion of the curve the way I have it now. So I may just leave it alone, and not take a chance on making it look off somehow.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Thanks! I feel better with some encouragement on the look. Wish it was better, but I have redone so many things on this first one that I realize that I could easily extend this project another month, season, or year to get it perfect.

The wood for the fretboard is zircote. Beautiful to look at, an absolute nightmare for a beginner like me to make a fretboard out of. I have an older thread here somewhere, but don't know how to post it, but it shows all the heartache I went though to get the frets in. What a mess, darn near destroyed the board. Luckily my patches are all but invisible.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

The parallel saying I've often heard is:

"Perfect is the enemy of done." At the lutherie school there will be 25 people start at the beginning of the school year and anywhere from 5-15 done at the end. Mostly because they got hung up on one thing they couldn't get "perfect".

The other thing they teach here is that the worst sounding guitar is the one still in pieces in your garage.

Yup. I think someone posted here a study that was done that shows that people who make mistakes and move on actually learn faster and become better at their craft then those who strive for perfection. Seems counter intuitive but when you think about it, you will be on your tenth guitar and have learned a whole lot by doing while the perfectionist will still be trying to get the first one just right.

The reality of most mistakes is that you are going to be the only one who ever see's it. Well except for us luthiers, just don't post any finished pics here

j/k

When I had the first set of bindings on this body, I showed it to my cousin, who was a builder at one time. He was encouraging, but immediately pointed out every thin spot, every gap, every flaw, and said "As the guy who taught me said, 'don't do this!'" So, I cut that binding off and redid it. Eventually, I learned a technique to put binding on that worked for me, and is pretty much gap free. That has been the story of this build. Perhaps it was my mind set. Yes, I could have built many more in this time, but being in this by myself, no one close to ask for techniques (except this forum,) I decided it would be better to take my time and learn how to put one together right instead of building several that I wasn't happy with. Or as I explained it to someone in my family, the worst sound hole rosette you've ever seen is perfect, and perfect is a pretty high low bar. From a cheap import with paint to a fancy high end model, I have never seen a sound hole inlay with a gap, except for the first one I did. Which by default made it the worst looking guitar I'd ever seen. That didn't set right with me, how could I show that off even to family? So I cut that one out, and did it again.

So, was this a wrong approach? Who knows. Probably, in many eyes. But in my defense, the last time I showed the box to my cousin, he couldn't find anything wrong, and said he can't wait to hear it because it looks like it will be a fine instrument. And, I will definitely post pics when it is done.

Or, as I've said many times, I have failed at a great many things. But all of them have been interesting.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I have pretty much the same philosophy so not the wrong approach in my mind. I was told by a well known pro not to be afraid to take it apart and redo it. I have done exactly that having replaced fret boards, tops, bridges, rosettes and refinished a few too. At some point you do have to declare it done and move on so I suppose there is a degree of balance required.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Please don't take my comment as criticism. I believe in another post you asked if we thought it was done. I was merely suggesting that "yes" it is OK to call that done. Everybody works a different way. There is no "right" or "wrong". In the end you are doing this for love, not money. If you need encouragement to stop and accept what you have -- well then, you've got it! That is not the same as criticizing you for not working faster or building more guitars. If you want to tear it back down and re-bend the sides, that's OK too.

I remember years ago working on a guitar at Palomar College when a fellow student looked over my shoulder and said, "Wow! You really can fix just about anything, can't you!" OK... so back handed compliment for sure. But it was true. I was measuring once and cutting twice. On the other hand, he worked with unnerving precision. I don't think I saw him ever make a mistake. There is real value to making sure it is really right before you move on. I made two mediocre guitars (the second better than the first), he made one really nice one -- that he completed months after the end of the semester.

So, take your time to make it "right". If you are ready to move on, know that many of us have done that in your position and been perfectly pleased with the results. Remember, building guitars is just like crack cocaine -- you are unlikely to stop after just one taste!

great that you are sticking to this. At some point you just have to blur your vision and call it done. It seems to me that in any woodworking project of any complexity, particularly guitars, there is at least some repair involved. Gibson used to run an ad for their custom shop showing a guy building a guitar and he was super gluing something back together. On my first guitar, I made a big hole in the top somehow, but you can barely see the patch.

One thing I learned from this thread is that going with fancy wood on the first one is probably a bad idea. Sometimes I'm glad that I'm cheap.

I really got a kick out of this! When I decided to build a guitar, I went to my local fancy lumber yard, which has since shut down. Bummer. I got a nice stash of wood, tiger maple, walnut, and a wonderful pile of goncalo alves. Then I spotted a really nice looking piece of wood standing alone. I asked what it was, and the price. The guy told me it was quilted ash, and was the only board of its kind he had. I checked, and it was even quarter sawn! I couldn't resist, so I grabbed it quick before someone else saw it, and bought it. The price was $24. Yep, you read that right, not $240.

So yeah, cheap big time! Got enough wood out of that one board to make the back, sides, and neck, all for 24 bucks. Maybe in this case, cheap wasn't the right way to go...

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

wow, that was cheap. I guess Mahogany isn't cheap, but nobody feels particularly bad about staining it to the point where you can barely see the wood, so a few shims would be no big deal. One of my failed experiences was similar to yours, I got some really nice curly hard maple cheap somewhere, and immediately cracked the sides. Sorta wish I had just used it for veneer on a piece of furniture.