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Well here you go -- more history. I checked out the MSDS sheet because John Greven just mentioned to me that it has a nasty preservative (only 1%) but interestingly the MSDS

https://www.norlandprod.com/msds/hightackmsd.html

reveals that Norland fish glue is actually the "Original LePage's" wood glue. Interesting too is the fact that the stuff is 99% gelatin which is exactly the same stuff "Gummy Worms" are made of -- go figure. You old timers will remember this little bottle of glue:

Labels on verso: "Le Page's Original Glue has been a woodworking standard for many years and is used in the production of fine furniture. It may be used on wood, leather, cloth, paper, ivory, marble, glass, rubber, plastics and metal...ready to use - requires no further preparation. Its uniform high quality contributes to its superior performance...sets slowly enough to allow plenty of time to fit joints together perfectly. This glue is tested to 3000 pounds shearing strength per square inch...should glue become thick or chilled, stand container in warm water until glue flows readily".

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

yes fish glue has indeed been used many years. It was also used on stamps and lick glue used on envelopes.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I contacted Franklin to get the patent date as I couldn't find it on the franklin site. I know white glue also was used a long time. My Pop was a cabinet maker and used it for everything.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

And it is only a hair over 8 bucks a quart

In addition to doing the cooking (I manage the top oven when we do batches of new tops) and the ironing (I got to iron my miss-bent sides flat to allow rebending), I also manage the builder's guide we use here, which includes new/replacement process shots and videos, graphics, data tables, and all the rest of the stuff that the boss would normally have to do himself or pay someone to do.

In going through the adhesives section and trying to take a few weeks of various glue threads and reduce some lengthy discussions down to a few pithy pages, I suppose I don't really understand why some glues continue to be used by some builders and not by others. If I look at the 'Cons' section of the 'Pros/Cons' listings in the guide for different glues, I have to wonder why anyone would use ANY of these adhesives!

Titebond Original/Aliphatic Resin: No reversible; requires high temperature to reopen joint; poor strength in imperfect joints (no gap filling capabilities; glue 'laces' as it dries in poor/gapped joints, instead of pulling joint closed); low initial tack results in difficulty gaining/maintaining alignment; No reglue of joint glued with Titebond without extensive prep or complete removal of cured glue; temperature sensitive cure and storage - two year shelf life under normal storage conditions; glue unusable if exposed to freezing temperatures during storage; poor cure and chalking at low cure temperatures; limited open time at elevated temperatures; cold creep with thicker ( > 0.005" glue line thickness) if exposed to continuous loading; creep and/or release with elevated temperatures (120 deg F and above) under loading (including loads seen in bracing/top/back joints); glue does not stain or dye, so residue highly visible under finish; relatively limited data on long term durability (~65 years of industry usage)

Hot Hide Glue: Must be used hot and very poor/nil joint strength if glue is allowed to gel before joint is closed/under pressure and glue line thinned; large assemblies must be preheated (which risks overheating, resin bleeds, and heat-related failures of already-dried joints); mixed glue must be refrigerated between uses, and reheating may result in reduction of bond strength, particularly for thicker glue lines; must be used in relatively narrow band of temperatures (50-90 deg F), or glue gels too fast/not at all; odor of some hide glues may be objectionable to some users.

Cyanoacrylate (AKA super glue; Hotstuff, Zap, etc.): Limited/no open time and limited/no repositioning of joint after closure; not reversible, and residue is difficult or impossible to remove for high viscosity formulations; may yellow with heated (e.g., bending pre-purfled bindings); may discolor end grain when low viscosity formulations are used without end grain sealant being applied; melts lacquer finishes; steam generated during accelerated cure may result in a weaker, translucent/discolored joint; limited service history (<65 years).

Other glues have similar limitations, and we've covered fish glue's limitations in this and other threads, so no need to repeat those discussions.

So again - between poor in-service/use behavior, limited service histories, and significant storage and use limitations, how do we decide which glues are 'standard' adhesives? Mr. Cierp is clearly a fan of plastic resin based adhesives and sees little need to move beyond the Franklin section of the glue aisle at The Home Depot, while Mr. Hall sees collagen-based glues as generally more desirable for building and repair, and likely avoids the glue aisle entirely. Are they both right, and if so, how do near-identical requirements result in these divergent solutions for two experienced builders?

I will be updating the adhesives section text on pros/cons, usage, limitations, etc., so I beg your indulgence for yet another round of my questions. I will also take this opportunity to thank those members participating in this discussion for their patience with questions already asked!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

"how do we decide which glues are 'standard' adhesives? Mr. Cierp is clearly a fan of plastic resin based adhesives and sees little need to move beyond the Franklin section of the glue aisle at The Home Depot, while Mr. Hall sees collagen-based glues as generally more desirable for building and repair, and likely avoids the glue aisle entirely. Are they both right, and if so, how do near-identical requirements result in these divergent solutions for two experienced builders?"

I think it's fair to say that a great many really nice guitars have been built and are being built using either class of glue. This is yet another example of how so many aspects of guitar building can be accomplished by more than one method which on average get different builders to essentially the same end result. Which method suits which builder can depend on things like personal preferences/priorities, specific uses, and specific details of the construction of a particular instrument. Builders don't need to be wed to a "standard" approach and can pick and choose between alternatives depending on circumstances as long as they know the pros and cons of the different options. Which is why I find threads like this one so useful.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

As I stated and to this Ken will agree Joint integrity is most important. If the joint is forced you will have a bad joint period.
Tite bond does suffer cold creep. I have seen this fact on bridges through the year. While it doesn't happen on every one it does happen.

Many great guitars were and are being built by both glues. The big advantage is the water or drying glues are easier to work with and reglue .
Tite bone , is a curing glue and the old glue needs to be removed to have success in reglueing a joint .

The other point is tradition. Martin used HHG on the authentic's and is offered in the custom shop.

I don't use super glue for building guitars. I will use Duco cement or weldon for plastic binding but that is about it.

There are advantages and disadvantages in the different glues . I have used tite bond in the past when I first got started so again fact is both glues work. Just as there are advantages to knowing more than one building technique find the one that best suits your needs.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Even in this short thread --- based on my experience and research there are misrepresentations of both types of glue. So as usual take all internet info with a grain of salt regardless of how formal and scientific the queries and responses might seem.

In my view, regrading adhesives in guitar making -- I do not see that one product is suitable for all applications. While my go to adhesive is Original Titebond, I also use small quantities of CA, Duco, and Epoxy. And for dove tail neck joints one of the protein glues -- seems the water solubility of fish glue would be a good choice in that app.

Like John points out take care with fits and surface prep, follow the manufacturer's prescribed procedure for use and application --- all will be fine.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Just to throw another wrench in the works so to speak, and since this discussion has moved on to various types of glue, I built a flamenco guitar almost entirely out of CA. I glued the top, back and bridge on with Titebond because CA was just too fast for that but the entire rest of the guitar was with CA. I did it just to see if it would work and 10 years later it's still kicking.

Fun stuff

Ill add a little here as well. Full disclosure I did not read this whole thread.

Kevin Gallagher (RIP) once built an entire guitar using nothing but CA. I was an emergency project and he completed it in something like 6 days if I recall. From what I remember it was a great guitar and is probably still going strong.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Mr. Cierp:

I believe it would be of service to the others following this thread to provide a bit more detail here. I am uncertain as to what misrepresentations were made and to which glues you refer to above. In this one case, I believe that a little well-intentioned finger-pointing may actually serve to bring that which is somewhat vaguely seen into sharper focus, and I am certainly keenly interested in correcting any errors in fact or presentation within the text under my care.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Or we could just all agree to disagree and realize there are many different opinions and also
many different experiences that we sometimes do not share.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Ditto --- Lance

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Marvelous advice...taken with a bit of salt of course, given the source resides on the internet

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Darn you, OS X!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Adding a little salt will increase the open time of the thread

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I think it may actually be a problem with how we season our posts...salt is fine to extend things a bit, but try adding some additional kick with a spicy quote or two, and the thread can get too hot to handle.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

It was incredible fast! To glue the fan struts down I simply held them in place for 60 seconds with my fingers, boom done.

Yeah, but you were lucky your fingers weren't stuck to the fans too!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

One of our regulars here at A2G used CA to try to keep his battery bag from coming loose in his one of a kind Martin Signature model named after him and this is serial number 001 of that line too.

He ended up gluing the top of his palm to the upper bout, outside of the guitar right where it showed big time too.... He was able to get his hand unstuck from the guitar but the guitar's finish was damaged and again this is the very first one in the series named after him.....

He brought it to us and Dave was able to make an invisible repair to the point that you can't tell that anyone had ever glued their hand to the guitar. Of course this involved wet sanding human skin off the thing too.... yuck....

Things can happen pretty quickly with CA and although it's a great glue for appropriate applications caution Will Robinson and have your chops down first.

I once had a guitar that came in where someone had made some gluing mistakes. I had to take it apart and repair the damage. I didn't have to explain the error to the owner, as they were already aware of their mistake.

Andy

This sounds like a story that needs to be told in more detail, even if you have to change names to loosely resemble those of the guilty...

Thanks Dan but this is a story that will not be turned into a video on YouTube and that's about all I have to say about this... Our part in having some of these well known clients includes, but is not limited to, the application of the cone of silence at times....

What? What did you say? I can't hear you?

Here's another one and I am not trying to be overly cryptic just sharing experiences while maintaining the privacy of our clients. One well known player hit the roof when we cleaned his pre-war Martin which was just as cruddy as can be while it was in for servicing just prior to cutting an album in the studio. The client wanted the thing as dirty as can be on his album cover.... I hate dirt.....

I love these stories that repair people tell...yes - they all are essentially "A customer broke his guitar and I fixed it because, well, that's my job", but beyond that, there seems to be an almost infinite variety of calamities which can befall our instruments and no end to the humor of these situations. I find that when it's late at night and I have some difficulty turning my cognitive functions off, reading through the archived repair related threads is an excellent tonic for the mind and body...so interesting and usually a great deal of educational value.

The superglue story was so good I shared it with my boss's daughter, and got what seems to be most millennial's highest accord: "Cool story, bro"

So 'Cool story, Mr. Breakstone and Mr. B' - thanks for an interesting thread.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower