Official Luthiers Forum!

Check out this research article published in September that is of some relevance to this thread:

Effect of Vibration Treatment on Guitar Tone: A Comparative Study

http://savartjournal.org/index.php/sj/article/view/22/pdf

Bottom line: a "commercial device for effecting a tone change through imposition of vibrations" does nothing to a guitar even when applied five times longer than the minimum time recommended by the manufacturer. I know some will be shocked by this news.

This may not qualify as a lutherie myth so much as a marketing myth though.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I have no experience with Tonerite, but they have some important endorsers.

...and what about baking?

As far as air guitars... I have some "old growth" air sustainably harvested from the glaciers in Antartica. Crystal clear and certified pre ozone-hole. Its become known as "THE Air".

I also have some Irish Air from the Londonderry area, more affectionately know as Derry-Aire. Some people have an aversion to it's pungent odor when worked with, butt in the end, it makes a great finger-picking guitar. Locally famous for its sonorous tones and colorful texture.

Jay thanks for posting this - very, very interesting....

The study is well done and the approach seems well thought out as well and then there is this conclusion:

"We therefore conclude that any changes associated with the vibration treatment we performed are negligible. We do not make conclusions on the origin of the widespread anecdotal reports of improvements in sound associated with this vibration treatment, but note that the well-established effects of the power of suggestion and marketing [27], as well as the lack of double-blind, control testing might be a factor in these anecdotal reports. We also do not make conclusions about possible effects of more vigorous vibration treatment, including that of playing the guitar for decades, or of the effects of simple aging on guitar tone. We do however suggest that the methods utilized in this study can be used to investigate the effects of these treatments and others on wooden string instruments of various types."

This was published in the Savart Journal to give attribution.

Two things that impressed me in the conclusion are attributing the perception of change to a device such as a Tonrite is the "power of suggestion and marketing" and the other factor that I found of interest in the conclusion is: "We also do not make conclusions about possible effects of more vigorous vibration treatment, including that of playing the guitar for decades, or of the effects of simple aging on guitar tone."

The study seems quite credible and well reasoned to me. Certainly more so than any other reviews or forum posts that I have read to date and no insult intended to anyone who has commented either positively or negatively regarding Tonerite prior.

Tonerites have been around what 7 years or so now? It will be interesting to see what is thought of torrification when it's approached with the scientific method and by those willing to do so.

My only nit is some of the wording in the conclusion offered with the words "Improvements in sound" standing out to me.

Improvements to whom, by what criteria - sound/tone is so very subjective that who is to say how we attempt to quantify even the very word "improvement" in respect to tone.

And that is the old catch-22 of any tone or suspected tone enhancing discussion - by who's measure....

This reminds me of number 14 back in the day where as soon as I strung her up she sounded absolutely awful to my ear. I even had trouble tuning the thing and had to check my tuner to make sure that I had not inadvertently changed it's calibration... No matter what I did this guitar just sucked....

I posted this experience back then too IIRC. Anyway I played the thing for a couple of hours and it seemed to improve. Then after going to sleep a bit disappointed the next morning I played it again and it sounded better.... to....my.... ears. I could not understand what may be happening, some kind of transformation and that is why I made the posts asking for suggestions.

By that evening the guitar sounded pretty good and there after it was fine. I kept this guitar and never sold it thinking that I had trouble with it and never figured out what the issue was so selling it was not an honest thing to do. These days it's a fine guitar and one I often take to events or loan to an apprentice when they are staying with us. Folks like it.

So what gives? Are there perhaps two very different processes that we have combined into one in our attempts to explain them? Is there an initial "settling in" that is or can be a very different process than an instrument "playing in" over time?

Or since I was a newer builder and had not become obsessed with the repair side yet... maybe my nut slots sucked and were the source of intonation problems and time and use helped the strings settle in more to poorly cut slots. This would be my guess these days looking back but I can't know and it bothers me that I never really found out what was happening.

Don't know but it sure was a surprise to me and never happened again with subsequent instruments sounding fine immediately without this inability to even be tuned well. Go figure, yet another Lutherie mystery that I have experienced and may never understand what the causation was.

As a repair guy who talks with the public nearly every day attempting to translate... what they are telling me into something that will help me better understand what they are experiencing the story of number 14 that I posted above also sounds pretty suspect to me when recalling it. It could be that it was something simple and overlooked back then because I was a newer builder and very much a builder error kind of thing.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has experienced a new instrument that was even difficult to tune and sounded not so good that improved with only a few hours time playing it. In this case the improvement was from basically unplayable to very playable and all in a couple hours and a wake up. Strange.

Anyway she's hanging on the wall next to me and is a great guitar these days which I am grateful for.

Thanks again Jay!

The whole aging thing also brings to mind the conflict about an aged sound vs. someone like James Taylor who's got a video on youtube where he opens his vault of all the guitars he owns and played. He claims they are all trash after a few years and puts them away like puff the magic dragon.

I am sure that it's all in the ear of the beholder. James may just like crisp responsive guitars and not the mellowness of maturity. he might want to rethink that as he approaches the old folk home age.

I'm not so certain it's a myth that one can build a guitar more cheaply than one can purchase a custom - hand made one. For my own, which has taken me over a year now... I am super pleased with it so far and haven't made any huge mistakes other than the humidity issue (Arrgh!) and in the end I would have paid $5K for a guitar like this (MY child is prettier than ALL the rest!). Totaling up my expenses in today's $ wood is close to $2k alone; lessons added another $2k... now if I had to add in time and gas (Al's about 2 hours away) THEN it skyrockets to $25K - I am sure I have over 400 hours on this thing... but since it's just another one of my hobbies I think that's a wash... where if I paid a luthier for the time, that's pure expense. So I definitely think I am making out on this one, plus I have learned to fish rather than being handed one.

As far as the skill level goes... OK, I am the classic "my experience is limited to a summer school shop class where I built a corner shelf and a hand shaped sign", but I am handy and am not afraid to use tools. There isn't a nail I can't get to go in straight given a big enough wrench. From a woodworking perspective I have not found any of this to be daunting. (Setting up go-bars scares me a bit though). Well I take that back... the drill press planer was nerve wracking at first. ...And routing the binding channels...

The most difficultly I have is the theory, separating the fact from fiction and it's a constant battle to decipher what I need to worry about and what is silliness... no, I don't have it all figured out, but it's been great being a part of Al's shop where the mantra of "It is what it's gonna be" helps to take the edge off. I see the challenge of being able to produce consistent product as the place where I will need the most focus.

But comparing instrument making to boat building or furniture making... I don't see a difference. The difference comes with the vision and the attention to detail and the creative spark and that is true in any field... those who take the work to an art form simply live that way. It may appear more difficult to some because we are not all wired in that manner. I think those who produce truly exceptional pieces simply love what they do... or they have a great marketing strategy.

I think that's why I reject the myth that nurture (Hard work) wins over nature (Talent). In the final analysis, hard work will produce a better product than talent, but in those people who possess both talent and determination... holy crap!. Those are the exceptional craftsmen.

Ok I'm surprised no one has said this one yet, or maybe I missed it:

Tops with more grain lines per inch sound better.

Ya know what would be interesting? An anonymous poll of these theories taken with yes and no responses and the number of years building, number of guitars made... I wonder how much belief systems vary as experience goes up. Would also be curious to see similar responses from clients.

Gee, you mean it DOESN'T bring out the tone? All this time, I thought it stood for "high definition-28"......

My Kohno 30 spruce top sounded pretty bad to me for a few years, then all of a sudden seemed to get a lot better. But I do not know if really I just improved my technique of touching the strings.

Great question and something that I find myself frequently discussing with other Luthiers as well.

Robert I can tell you what has happened with me. As my experience grew my steadfast, can't be any other way.... beliefs declined dramatically. I find myself more open to the possibilities now and I am also rather fond of saying the older I get the less I seem to know....

Seriously it's not a matter of what I have learned because I have most certainly learned far more with time but perhaps in my case I find myself less secure in prior beliefs likely because the spectrum of possibilities that I am aware of has also grown dramatically with experience.

Funny how that goes, eh...

I couldn't agree more Hesh. It was that way in medicine too. Lots of WTF? moments that over the years make you a seasoned pro with plenty of humility and more adept at the thing you are really getting paid for, the ability to get out of trouble.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

That Padma? has run out of that special spruce from Ghengis Khan's yurt poles.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Hesh - One of the things I liked about the study in addition to quality of the experimental design was that they didn't attempt to address the question of tonal improvement directly. They assessed the three pairs of guitars for any detectable differences in tone between the untreated guitar and the treated guitar within each pair. I think it's safe to say that there can't be improved tonal quality when there is no detectable difference in the sound of the guitars either by measured physical properties or by subjective assessment of tonal characteristics in a double blind evaluation done by players.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Interesting read.

Seems like one man's myth is another man's hit.

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Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

I'm SO tempted to mention all the hype some builders use to differentiate themselves from others in the marketplace, like - the wood that they have been recently using is the greatest tonewood they've ever used, and only they happen to have a supply of it - kind of crap. Or how one particular type of finish is vastly superior for tone than all the others.......

But I won't mention any of that.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I second you Don, the truly great myths are in advertising.

" (insert guitar builder)'s instruments offer a perfect balance between (insert anything), and (insert anything else).


The myth that requires the most delicate handling for me is, " (no, I never left my instrument in a hot car, why?)


and," I don't know who tried to fix this. must have been the guy I bought it from"


There is a whole genre of Myths surrounding, "the guy I bought it from".

I believe that all the " Myth" is based on some truth .( ie: If I scallop my tone bars a specifc way , I tend to "think" my sound is better .......... Basic truth )

( I believe from my vast experience of (1) Build that the "only" way to make a guitar sound good is to scallop the tone bars to exactly these dimensions , any deviation will cause a less than optimal performance and a less than stellar guitar ......... "Myth" )

The ways to build a great sounding guitar are endless ... and quite frankly , paying too much attention to the "myth" that it "has to be a certain way" detracts from the artistry of building and the potential of new ideas and approach .

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
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Here's one I heard for the first time today. Copied from another forum -



Oh my...

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

WudWerkr:
Yup, 'the right way' is definitely a myth. The fact that that's one of the founding creeds of the GAL doesn't stop them from having speakers at the conventions and printing articles that push one or another 'right way'. Often enough those authors justify their claims by saying: "the best guitars in the world were made this way". They are, of course, right. However, they ignore the fact that a lot of really bad ones were made that way too.

It reminds me of an exchange on another list a few years ago. Some folks were complaining about modern 'eek squawk' music. One of them pined for the 18th century, when al the music was good. A list member responded that his room mate at conservatory had done a thesis on opera in the 18th century. He compiled a list of all the operas he could find out about that premiered in Europe in 1789. There were 3000 (!). Of those only two are still in the repertoire today; both by Mozart. How many of those execrable Guitar-Like-Objects that WalMart sold over the holiday season had the same sort of bracing as the 'Golden Era' Martins? Or nitro finishes? Or whatever the 'magic-du-jour' is? Counting the hits while ignoring the misses is a standard method for myth-making.

"It only takes the building of two (or five, or ten, or twenty) guitars to teach you everything you need to know."

and another:

"Mandolins are much easier to make than guitars because they are so much smaller."

I have never heard (or read) anybody say that building two guitars teaches you everything you need to know.

I have read people say that you need to build twenty guitars or more before you get a handle on what you are doing, to which I usually point out that Rod Schenk sold the second guitar he ever built for a sum in excess of $5,000 (at Healdsburg Festival, no less).

This proves that "there is no substitute for experience" is a myth, and that a substitute for experience would be "innate talent".

That would only apply , of course, to people like Rod Schenk, who do and did have the innate talent. For us ordinary mortals, there is no substitute for experience.

I read an article probably ten years ago where the guy did an experiment gluing the tops on two 'LP' style guitars - one using hide glue and one using titebond. He claimed he could measure a difference in the resonance meaning that hide glue allowed more signal to travel through the glue joint. I have searched many times and I haven't been able to find the article again.

Quoting Alan:
Often enough those authors justify their claims by saying: "the best guitars in the world were made this way". They are, of course, right. However, they ignore the fact that a lot of really bad ones were made that way too.

I really like this.

Water bourne finishes are the future.

The pressure of the pad makes French polish denser and harder than plain shellac.