Official Luthiers Forum!

So, friends.

I moved two years ago, and moved my guitar shop to an unheated barn, separate from my house. I need to turn this into a functional 9 or 10 month workshop, so that I can work out there, down to say 30 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm an amateur, not a pro, so don't plan on going crazy with this. I also don't plan on having to glue braces on tops or backs except when I expect humidity will be stable, etc. In other words, I want to turn a totally unheated, uninsulated workshop (a separate, walled area of the barn, with a door and separate windows, into a place that I can work when outdoor temperature isn't comfortable. Last year, from about October 30th until April 30th, it wasn't a place that I wanted to be. Room Is about 15 by 10, 8 foot ceilings. No insulation on the wooden walls, under floor or on ceiling. Type of heater to use? How would you insulate?

To reiterate, I know that heating and cooling cycles will wreak havoc on wood, and I don't expect production to be more than a couple of guitars a year. I'll avoid the really sensitive stuff except when outdoor temps are milder, and cranking the heater won't be necessary.

Thanks!!

Hi Corky,
Not much I can add to whatever structural info you get but I would suggest that you arrange for climate contolled storage for parts, components and assembled guitars.
I have an IKEA "PAX" cabinet that's 19" X 23" deep in which I store guitars and can provide a "microclimate" of humidity during the really dry months.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S79029411/
My shop is set up in my basement which is fairly controllable, but with an outbuilding I would think you would need even more control over the space where you are storing the instruments under construction.
I also have a cabinet (originally constructed to store large sheets of photographic paper) in which I keep components under construction. Once assembled (my guitars are classicals where the neck is attached early on) they go into the PAX cabinet with a humidity gauge and humidity source.

I was in about the same situation. But I installed insulation and drywall. Over time I now have AC and heat. So I get to work all year. It's not that big of a deal for your small space. Just go slow take some time. Besides it'll get you out of the house on them snowy frosty brrry mornings. Just a thought. Sometimes it's not possible but sometimes it is. Guitar makers are very creative.


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David, what do you use as a humidity source in the cabinet and how many guitars fit?
Thanks, Wendy

One thing that I would strongly recommend is installing a sub floor. 2x creepers with a painted aspenite (chip board) deck. Chances are that the barn floor is uneven, so this will allow you to level it. Your feet will thank you, as well as the first chisel that you drop on it's tip.
Frame, insulate, and drywall in the correct manner, and run as many electrical outlets, both at floor and bench height as you can. A couple of outlets in the ceiling wouldn't hurt, either.
I always ran 20 amp instead of 15 amp outlets in my shops to protect against tripping a breaker when using a couple of tools at the same time.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Doesn't sound like you're living in an extreme climate, so I'll stick my neck out.
This is based on my own shop, similar size at 12' X12'
Depends on your budget, but least expensive I can think of that would work reasonably well is - for the walls and roof (don't forget the door) - suspended double bubble foil insulation, (N.B. ceiling would benefit from additional 2" expanded polystyrene and walls from fibreglass insulation) - all drywall lined.
Floor 2" underflooring insulation with a vapour barrier (or suspended double bubble foil insulation) under OSB sub floor.
Heating - 3 setting (500/100/1500watt) electric oil filled radiator, and I use a domestic dehumidifier (15 pint/day) for the same size of workshop, year round in Scotland. (Needs a bucket of water in it in winter)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Corky,
I think you know the answer before you typed the question.
Insulate and rock the walls. Put insulation under the sub floor and a good door on the room.

The major expense there is the floor. Insulation and sheet rock are cheap. Heck, double insulate.
Vapor barrier under the floor.

Heating/cooling cycles aren't so bad. It is the swings in humidity that will do you in.
Here in MN I keep the thermostat set at 40 all winter and turn up the heat to 70 when I go out to the shop without issues. But I run humidity or dehumidification all year long.

The insulation will help with the climate, and that is taking account for more than temperature.

Seriously. Without a way to control humidity, you are sunk before you start.


Good luck.

You could check out Mario Proulx's (Grumpy on here) web site. He's in northern Ontario and has a shop outside the house. I believe he has AC and a wood-stove for heating in the colder weather. Haven't seen him on here for a while though.
Brent

If you can afford it- line it with politicians! It doesn't matter which party because they all absorb cold with the right amount of cash!!!!

Just kidding- On a serious note double pane windows are worth it. You can feel a draft with your hand on old windows, if you add heat- that's money out the window. Of course that means nothing if you don't insulate your space. At the very least line your walls with Styrofoam, but drywall and insulation isn't that much more (and it's safer) if you plan on building long term. Heat-wise I couldn't tell you the right move. My old shop in NY with heated with one radiator that ran off natural gas. As long as you don't spray in there, that's safe and efficient- but again only if it is properly insulated.

+1

I spent a bunch of money on humidifiers and dehumidifiers in NY and then more for bigger units in Alaska. The better insulated the better, but plan for all of your factors. I learned the hard way

Thanks all!!

Callyrox,
My humidity source in the cabinet is a plastic bowl with a wet sponge.
The 19" X 23" PAX cabinets come in two heights, 79" and 93", I have only enough ceiling room for the shorter one. Even at that I can comfortably fit 6 classical guitars having installed a shelf mid-height.
"D" size, 12 strings etc. are longer so I'd say 3 with space below for other storage. The 93" height would fit six of whatever type I think.
You will need to install padding, bumpers (to keep things fom sliding out etc.) Neck cradles could also be put in but I haven't done it as sometimes with old or smaller guitars I can fit 4 abreast.
My shop cabinet is configured for three with storage below (they come with 2 shelves) this one is in my strorage/showroom area:

I'm in the exact same boat as you actually and it's been going on a year now because of so many other side projects and guitar repair in my temp shop has been keeping me busy. But anyway... I'm going to invest a bit more money in it then what it sounds like you are but as others have mentioned don't even bother trying to build guitars if you cannot control the environment, seriously trust us on that one. I think for a shop your size you could get away with base board heating, window AC units, a dehumidifier and a humidifier. I am lining my walls with R-15 and drywall the ceiling and the sub floor are getting spray foam insulation and I'm thinking of getting some Mitsubishi ductless units installed.

Fortunately for me there is already a well built barn/out building wired with enough power to run everything I need. All I have to do is finish it off and I hope to have that done by the end of fall.

I use a closet that is big enough to store my work in progress and a dehumidifier (in the summer) or an oil filled electric radiator heater (in the winter). I like the oil filled heaters as I don't think they get as hot as a regular electric baseboard heater does. I only heat the room my work bench is in when I am in there. The machine tools are in an unheated room. The closet is lined in plastic and the door semi sealed to cut down on moisture migration through the walls. In the coldest couple of months I don't do much work in the shop and switch every thing off.

I also prefer the oil-filled electric radiator heater. My shop is about 12' x 20' and is an insulated building on a slab. The electric heater easily keeps the shop above 50F when outside temps get as low as 3F (this last year anyway) I have a window mount AC/heat unit so I can warm it up (or cool it down) while I work. A home type (200 pint?) dehumidifier with outside drain keeps the humidity at 40%. In the winter I don't warm the shop up too much so it stays above 35% so I have not had a need to humidify it.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I am a cheap old buzzard but maybe some of what I do might help you until you insulate the shop properly.
I use a double halogen work light that comes on a tripod stand. The stupid 500 watt bulbs they come with burn out right away but if you replace them with 300 watts they will last. I shine the light on both myself and the guitar as I'm working in the cold. If you use one of the oil-filled electric heaters (not a radiant one) put it exactly where you are working, set the tools and parts right on top of it. The halogen lamps make it easy to gently keep the wood warm. If you bring a freezing cold guitar into the house it will suddenly absorb a lot of humidity out of the air; so if you are stuck in this situation put it in a good case in the shop, don't open the case till it has been inside for hours.
Working with chisels, planes and other tools that produce chips instead of sawdust can be done quietly and neatly in the house.