Official Luthiers Forum!

Anyone have any sage advice for a first-timer staining a mahogany neck? It’s an EIR dreadnought and I would like to stain (dye?) the neck to look similar in color to a Martin neck. I’ve read about problems with the end grain on the heel absorbing too much stain, which I would like to avoid. I don’t have any spray equipment so I’m hoping there is an acceptable way to rub on the stain. Any advice would be appreciated.

TIA

Dark Walnut stain will probably be close to the color Martin uses. I don't use stain, but tint the second coat of finish. After getting the color right I scrape it off the heelcap and fingerboard. This is the neck off of a guitar I refinished a while back. The finish is tinted with dark Walnut trans tint. I don't remember, or even pay attention to the mix ratio, I just keep adding it until the color is right. I spray it, but doubt application methods matter much.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I use Brown Mahogany Trans Tint mixed with denatured alcohol and I stain the neck both before and after pore filling. You can control the color by adding additional coats of stain to make it darker or wiping with denatured alcohol to make it lighter. My recipe is 10 drops of Trans Tint in 1" of DA in a 1.5 oz. cup.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Using alcohol stain the important thing is to first FLOOD the neck with PLAIN alcohol and then quickly apply your stain conservatively with a cloth.
Successive coats get darker and darker so you can control the evenness of color by repeat coats on the shaft of the neck and less on other grain absorbent areas such as the heel.
I've mixed the Martin color combining the Red mahogany, brown Mahogany and Amber Transfill stains.
Filling after staining will help to darken and even out the color.

Hi, Charlie,

You are concerned with the open end grain on the heel, but the open pores all along the neck will also suck up more stain than the closed grain. Therefore, I think you should experiment with some pore fillers or a sealer coat of shellac. There are many filler products out there. Some are opaque, but will accept a stain after they dry. Others, such as epoxy, are clear and are preferred by many forum members. I personally like an opaque filler that I mix with stain. Lots of ways to go about it.
You can also paint on a coat of shellac, let it dry thoroughly, and sand it back so that it only remains IN the pores. Then stain. If you can borrow some spray equipment or get a friend to help, you can shoot your color in the finish coats. The important thing is to experiment on some scraps and off cuts of your mahogany before you commit to the actual guitar neck. Try several methods and see which one works best for you. It's fun, and you'll discover lots of possibilities along the way. One last thing: Make sure all your various products are compatible with each other. If you happen to use oil-based stains, let them dry several days before applying anything on top of them.

Good luck with it and let us see it when you've finished.
Patrick

Guys – thank you very much for the advice!

Woody – that necks looks very nice. I hadn’t considered tinting the finish rather than the wood. That’s an appealing idea since the if I screw it up I can just sand it off and reapply it. I’m going to experiment on some scrap and see how it turns out.

Jimmy – thank you for sharing your procedure and recipe. What material do you pore fill with? After pore filling with epoxy and sanding everything smooth, I wiped with alcohol and found that it pulled the fill out of some of the pores. Have you experienced any trouble with that?

David – flooding first with plain alcohol is a great idea! Do you flood the whole neck and then wipe on the stain, or do you just flood a manageable portion, stain that portion and then flood the neck portion, etc.?

Patrick – I like the idea of filling the pores and sanding back to wood before staining, If the pore filler is alcohol soluble, with using stain dissolved in alcohol create problems by dissolving the pore filler and pulling the fill out of the pores? I will definitely practice on scrap. I do have an air brush and may experiment with that as well.

[quote="CharlieT"]Guys – thank you very much for the advice!

Jimmy – thank you for sharing your procedure and recipe. What material do you pore fill with? After pore filling with epoxy and sanding everything smooth, I wiped with alcohol and found that it pulled the fill out of some of the pores. Have you experienced any trouble with that?

Charlie,

Here's my procedure.

Sand neck to 320.
Stain neck (This is only to stain pores as almost all of this gets sanded off - if you use a colored pore filler this is not necessary).
Pore fill (Z-Poxy). Usually 3 fills are required.
Sand back to bare wood.
Restain neck to desired color.
Wash coat of Z-Poxy (70/30 DA to Z-Poxy).
Rub lightly w/0000 synthetic steel wool.
Lacquer.

I've not had a problem w/the wash coat pulling out the filler, but my wash coat is a diluted mix of Z-Poxy and DA, not just DA.

Hope this helps.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Use Trans-Tint. I use a mix of dark brown, red mahogany and brown mahogany as a water dye mix. I don't pore fill the neck, but prefer to put on more lacquer and wait longer.
There is actually no problem with the heel soaking up more and being darker. It just looks darker before finish. That disappears after a few coats of lacquer. Try it on a scrap and see for yourself.

I use 2 stains to get the martin look , first I use is red mahogany , then follow with the brown mahogany. I also make the filler very dark .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Hi, again, Charlie,
I'm sorry to have to tell you that I can't say whether an alcohol-based dye would soften and pull up your alcohol-based shellac pore filler...but I'm almost certain it would! I can't tell you for sure, because I have never tried it in that precise sequence. Most of these other guys have much more experience finishing instruments than I have. My experience comes from finishing furniture pieces, and I applied those techniques to my instruments. My method works great for me, but it wouldn't work for many of the other guys. We each have our personal definition of "beautiful." I think you should work with some of these other guys who build LOTS of instruments, and let them guide you further. If you are curious about my method, send me a private message, and I will detail it for you. I've detailed it here previously, but my methods are way outside the norm as far as most of these pro builders are concerned, and these guys really know what they are talking about in terms of their client market. I am a hobby instrument builder, but with a few decades of furniture finishing experience. They are two different things. My intention was just to encourage you that there are LOTS of ways you can go about this, and most ways will lead to you a successful outcome. The key is experimentation on scrap, until you find out what works for YOU.

Go for it! Experiment. Have fun. Learn. And don't forget to show us your results. These guys are very supportive. You will get lots of encouragement here!

Patrick

no it won't as you should stain before filling then seal and fill .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Thanks again to everyone who has posted advice. I'm feeling a lot more confident about tackling what seemed a very daunting task yesterday. I'll definitely do some testing on scrap before touching the actual neck.

Much appreciated guys!

Charlie