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I think these are very good comments.

My wife and I spent about $14000 going to Europe for a couple of weeks. Great trip and no regrets. I have nothing to show for it except the memories of the experience. The photos only serve to help recall the memories. The experience with a luthier is an important part of the experience and value IMHO, and costs a lot less than most travel experiences.

VERY HONEST feedback can be a very scary thing. But I think that Filippo is correct in wanting this to improve building.

Chuck, have you sought this from a good builder?

Ed

Very well said, Patrick. That's what I try to do and as most of us are, I'm my own worst critic. All of this great feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks to everyone.

Chuck

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"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

The competition caters to the consumer and the consumer don't know diddle squat from that hole in the ground.

If your finding yerself up against the competition, your still thinking consumer not conousur.
Consumers don't buy custom made axes...well a few of them do.

Is like this ...most people can't tell the difference between $20 bottle of wine or a $100 bottle.
Is just that not many drink $100 bottles.

Stop thinking about the competition and the consumer. Thats the low end of dip stick.


Blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hey, just look at the music that "sells"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have played a bunch of those $750.00 Breedloves.... My impression was "Wow, they sure are shiney"....

Think about this... What's the differentiating factor between 10-million Chinese knockoff guitars? Mostly, it is visual "Features".... Wow, that one has a Rosewood back and sides.... This one has a "Solid Mahogany" neck.... That other one has Abalone purfling all over the place.... and this last one here advertises "Vintage Toner Genuine Lacquer Finish!"

Sadly, beneath all that stuff - they are still the same $199 guitar - same 1/8" thick top and back, same basic bracing pattern, same hot glue construction, same giant bridge plate..... and they all sound basically the same....

It's sad to me - go to a big guitar shop... I have a *REALLY* hard time telling the most of the $299 guitars apart from the $1,500 guitars on sound.... The differences are so subtle and fleeting....

Then, you get your hands on a real Luthier Guitar... and it's something different... It feels different, it plays different, and it sounds different - like what a "Real Guitar" is supposed to sound like - not like a plastic toy with fishing line strings on it....

Thanks

This post really has nothing to do with building a better guitar than someone else - but is more about the marketing angle.

Chuck, this may sound odd - but get good at photography.

My son and I are just now working on our 10th guitar - but what we have done so far has been quite successful from a "marketing" standpoint.

We frequent another board - the Acoustic Guitar Forum - and for the past 2 years have been posting photos of our builds - and outlining our progress as builders. I've tried to take nice "creative" photos and post them on AGF. From doing this we got quite a few inquiries wanting to know if we were selling guitars.

At the same time we built our web site - and posted more photos there. Once we had a couple guitars sold we asked for reviews - and posted those to the web site. We now have a good amount of orders for a couple guys only building 4 guitars per year (so far)

It's pretty easy to generate some excitement with all the "tools" at our disposal. As others have said, you can buy a guitar from just about anywhere these days, but there is something very special about the experience of teaming up with someone on a custom build. And there are people who WANT this experience. You just need to show them.

We recently finished a guitar for a customer who wanted a theme guitar to honor his brother who passed away last year. He wanted a surf theme - so we did a surfboard on the headstock, did surfboard crack-stops, did a wave sound port and a 24-piece wave rosette (Thanks Dave Fifield!!!).

You're not going to find that kind of guitar in a store, and we're discovering there's a big market for people who want something "one off" and those don't come with a price tag of $750.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

FWIW the guitars that I have sold have been to people who like the idea that they developed a relationship with a guy who built them a guitar, one guy in a small shop who oversaw the entire process, handled every piece of wood, made mistakes and fixed them, took a lot of pride and delivered the instrument two months late

Most people like brand names. That is the big issue. Especially I think in electric guitars, then steel string acoustics, and lastly classicals. I'm not sure any one likes a brand name classical. A friend of mine has three kids who all play in a band, dang talented kids, the guitar player is 13 and all he dreams of is Gibsons and Fenders and so on. Then as they get older they hear of the glory of the hand made instrument and they go for the Martins and Taylors etc...

I am a firm believer in "persistence pays off". Stay with it and don't compare yourself. Make something unique...be ANAL about every detail and don't worry about competing.

Kent

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Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

Make a fine guitar and it will sell. There is no competition in that.
Don't worry about marketing...that's for those with $$$.
There is no shortcut except $$$.

I'll always remember a handmade owner on one of the forums years ago, pointing out that 'Martin vs Taylor' is like 'Ford vs Chevy', when he's got a Porche.

I spend several hours on line every day, in part to learn, and in part (to be honest) to get my name out. I was lamenting the time spent one day when one of my students pointed out that a third of the budget of the company he worked for (3Comm) was advertising. It's just a part of doing business. You can do it yourself, or you can spend the time in the shop building guitars to make the money and pay somebody else to do it. Either way, it's got to get done.

That said, word of mouth is your best advertising, but you've got to earn it. That's not just a matter of making a really nice guitar, but also of getting a critical mass of them out there.

I used to be a bit jealous of the 'big name' makers who sold one to some famous musician and became household words. Some observation over the years since then has pretty well cured me of that sin. Again; those guys earned it, by making a good instrument, and doing so in a consistent way with sufficient numbers over the years to aquire a reasonable profile. I'll say that most of them are better sales people than I've ever been or probably will ever be. Everybody has their own talents, and you can't begrudge them. Enough of those guys are on their second or third marriage that it's easy to wonder if the tradeoff was worth it.

One of my customers makes the point that good makers are not really 'competitors', but 'peers'. My competiton is not another hand maker, it's the Martin Custom Shop, which charges a lot more than I do for the custom touches on what is basically a factory guitar. We hand makers need to start convincing the buyers that we're the real 'custom' workers.

But they do like brand name Classicals. If you take the whole range of Ramirez and Contreras, together they probably shift hundreds, if not thousands per year.

Yes true, I own a Ramirez and a Contreras so I guess I am just as guilty But there is more of a... whats the word I am looking for? Well... seems to me that the classical guitar market is a bit more focused on instruments that focus in on the guitarist. The artist who desires a certain tone. Not that pop/blues/blue grass ect.. musicians aren't as in tune to their instruments... they are! But there is a preconceived notion that for example a Martin is for this and a Gibson is for that not considering the actual instrument but rather the brand. Seems to me that there is a heritage of artist/luthier relationships in classical guitars that runs deep.

A couple of years ago, I received some bespoke shirts as a gift. I went and got measured, chose my fabrics, buttons, details... After they were done, the store followed up to make sure I was happy with them. And they are great. They fit well and make me look gooooood. The whole experience made me question some of the life choices I've made, but like Al, I don't think the compromises would have been worth it to me.

BUT!!! Within a few months of getting them, I gained a bunch of weight. I can still wear them, but they don't feel like they did and I don't look as good in them as I used to.

We at least don't need to worry about our customers outgrowing their expensive purchase. Thousands spent on a guitar isn't that much when you consider owning it for 30 years. People spend more than that for a couch they'll get less enjoyment from and will not last nearly as long. It's certainly more than other guitars they could buy, but for those who can afford it, it is justifiable.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

jfmckenna wrote:
"But there is a preconceived notion that for example a Martin is for this and a Gibson is for that not considering the actual instrument but rather the brand. Seems to me that there is a heritage of artist/luthier relationships in classical guitars that runs deep."

The thing is that it's much easier to build a good steel string than it is to build a good classical. Working to averages, as the factories do, results in a significant percentage of pretty good guitars when you're making steel strings, but not with classicals. The classical players know this, and tend to gravitate toward handmades because that's the most reliable way to get the sound they need. For that matter, steel string players know it too, and since it's usually cheaper to get something that's made in a factory rather than by hand, they buy factory instruments.