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I have a set that I bought, too, Filippo. I think, if it's light enough, it should be excellent. Most is probably not light enough. The set I have felt so light I thought it would be great.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I own a red spruce/Brazilian classical guitar made by Florida luthier Ken Miller, and I like it a lot. Of course there are so many other factors in the mix that it's hard to isolate what contribution the red spruce makes, but this guitar is proof enough to me that it can make a good classical. Ken makes classical and steel string guitars, as well as mandolins and I think red spruce is his favored soundboard wood. His wife Virginia also does beautiful inlay work on some of his guitars. You can Google him and send him an email - he's a super nice guy and has always been generous in sharing his opinions and advice with me.

Bart Hovis

I would agree that it can work, but it is very dependent upon the individual set. Light and stiff are the general criteria. In the end, it really comes down to what YOU do with it more than what wood you use.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
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When Marc Saumier sent me the wood for my 'Cerry Seven' guitar I was pleased to find that the Red spruce top was much less dense than is usual, and so elected to make a classical guitar. It turned out to sound better than I expected. I can't, of course, say whether that's solely due to the top, but it had to have been at least part of the mix. I'll note that all of the low-density Red that I've seen has come from smaller trees, or from high up in big ones, so it had little compression grain. It was also fast growth wood, with wide grain spacing. This is not to say you could not find some tight grained Red stock with low density: I just haven't seen any like that as yet. I'd say if it has a specific gravity much below .4, go for it.

Interesting discussion....

There was this thread about Sitka at Delcamp, and John Gilbert was mentioned as one guy having lots of success using this heavy spruce. I suggested John might have been successful with Sitka by searching especially light pieces, but another builder who knows John well (lived close to him) said it was not the case. I know for example that Greg Byers, a student of Gilbert, uses heavy spruce too. He thins to his target resonance no matter what, so he often ends up with spruce tops that are only 1.8mm all around, and this for a large guitar. To compensate however, he makes a very stiff maple harmonic bar, and heavy laminated linings, and tall narrow bracing. The question is now, how much stiffness you want from the top and how much from the bracing. I tend to try to leave my tops as thick as possible. We all know how a Smallman sounds. At the other end Romanillos' are pretty thick for such a small plantilla and i sure love the Romanillos sound.

In any case, in terms of stiffness, what I noticed so far, with Euro, is that light pieces are far more likely to put out a good stiff/weight ratio. Heavier tops say above .43 are quite inefficient (at least in my stash) but they seem to work well too, in certain cases. My best guitar yet is with one of these tops, but it has very stiff Bouchet bracing. Not sure i'd use one of these on a flat-braces Torres.

Currently I try to concentrate more on the quality of tap, as in a quick, open, sustaining, glassy tone. I throw aside those that are dull, or have runout, perhaps even if the stiffness to weight is colossal. Luckily enough (or not?), the best 2 or 3 trees I encountered so far (out of about 20) in terms of stiffness/weight also have an excellent tap tone....

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Build log

Forgot to add that both Gilbert and Byers use the "treble bar" thing. I've seen photos with the guts of a couple Gilbert's and that bar was substantial.

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Build log

Chew on this dudes

Once the bark is of the stick and that stick has been diced and sliced into tops,
nobody, but nobody ( not even the dudes in the lab coats) can tell you what type of spruce it is. NO matter weather its Carpathian, Englman, sitka, Lutz, Appalachian(what ever that is), red, black, white or purple leopard spot.

Well thats what me hear tell from the loggers and dudes who keep me supplied in free tone woods. Thats right, the stuff just shows up on my door step with a little notes like "here Padma, Build something trippy with this and post it around the net." Sometimes it don't even gotts a signature. So like there be no vested interest in "this piece of what ever spruce was harvested on a full moon night from the back side of the mountain in the dead of winter at 7,000 ft and is 400 years old kinda carpola handing of its $300 add to cart price tag.

The important thing to grock here is when you holding that piece of spruce in yer hand, no matter what kinda spruce she "suppost " to be...does it speak out at you. If not, slice her up into tooth picks. Simple eh.


Blessings
Padma

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Well, I have to disagree. There are clear differences between Euro, Engelmann, and Sitka/Lutz. I admit euro - engelmann can be tough to distinguish, but each species has visible differences (color aside) in the medullary rays. But we are going off topic now.

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Build log

Gee Alexandru,

Thank you for bringin this to our attention.

Ummm Alexandru, wood you please be so kind as to post pics of the various visible differences in the medullary rays and perhaps a short description delineating them differences...me always likes to learn new things and besides, me bet the other inquiring minds wood like to know too.


blessings

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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According to the scientific-types I've consulted in the past, the Padma is mostly correct. Apparently, Sitka can be identified accurately but the others, no. There are characteristics of each that make conditional identification easy (color, density, etc.) but to key it out scientifically more parts of the tree are necessary. I imagine that hybrids and differences in environment make it even harder to be sure what you have.

So then you may well ask: What's the point of spending extra for a certain species when a) you can't be sure that that's what you're getting and b) no one else can tell either? Perhaps we need vendors who sell spruce based on stiffness/density rather than name.

I might take some pics when I will have some time rummaging my wood pile, but before we decide what is the difference between the various spruces, and if premiums are worth it or not, let's not ruin the initial topic, it started well...

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Build log

Vindicated at last Thank you Rick,

Gee me even go along with the sitka thing as some wheres in me gray matter that seems to ring true.

Regarding vendors who sell based on stiffness / density.... I only know of one. But then me no pay attention to any of that stuff amyways. If I like the wood I use it. Simple.

Truth is after examining some woods and smelling and tapping and tasting and sitting down with it and having a good conversation, I listen to what the wood she be saying to me and then I build accordingly and yes dudes the 60's were real gooder to the Padma


Blessings

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Classical builder Robert Ruck has taken to using Lutz Spruce for his guitars, and is so impressed with it that he has purchased the stock of one of the trees that Shane's colleague Mario DaCosta had. Must be that Terrace B.C. wood.

Bob

My understanding of it parallels that of the Padma and Rick, with perhaps some reservations.

I'd be willing to accept the notion that _on the average_ there are visible differences between the various species of spruce. It's said, for example, the Red spruce has shorter or less visible medullary rays than Euro. The problem for wood identification is that all of these characteristics tend to range rather widely, so that there's a lot of overlap. Engelmann spruce tends to have low density, but I've got some that's denser than any Red spruce in my stash. A botonist, trying to make a _certain_ indentification of a _specific_ sample of wood can never be sure, because of the overlap. Neither can we, for that matter, when it comes to a single piece. But when, as it usually does, the discussion is about 'which is denser', or whatever, we can make some pronouncements that will be right most of the time. Despite the wood in my back room, I will aver that Engelmann tends to be less dense than Red. If somebody says that a particular top is probably Red spruce, because the meds are too short for Euro, I'll accept that they're probably right, but realize that they could also be wrong.

Thank Allen

Well like me been sayin from day one,
if the wood tickles me fanny, me use it. I don't gives a dingle berry about its linage, tile or label. Cuz in the last analysis you cant be sure anyways. Simple eh.

Or as me say, "If it gets the pig clean ...Use it!"

Oh and buy the way, Duh Padna has some really rare spruce sets from the high plateau deserts of inner Mongloia, that were milled from the two support beams in Genghis Kans yurt. Stiffer than viagra and light as a $100 bill each. Limited supplies, order now.

blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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