Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm finishing my first guitar, an OM Martin Kit, and I am loving it. I've learned much from this process and am planning my 2nd. I'm also learning how to play, but thats a subject for another post. Concurrently, I'm also reading "Shop Class is Soulcraft"; good book google it when you have a chance. But all three of these these things all got me thinking about how a hobby luthier decides and subsequently becomes a professional. If I might ask what do you consider yourself a hobbie or professional luthier; and what were your experiences that led you to your decision?

Also how many of you professional builders also hold day jobs? Before everyone starts wondering if this guy is crazy and thinking of doing this professionally after a sum total of one guitar; the answer is no. But, I think it would be a good 2nd career after I retire. I'm 40 now, if I started when I was 25, or even 30; things might have been different. Anyway just wondering more about the business.

Thanks for the discussion.

Joe

Joe: Back about 40 years ago the same thoughts ran through my head. I briefly considered giving up a good job with an assured pension at the end to take up luthiery full time. I had over estimated my skill level and the quality of my product. I am so thankful that I did not make the jump.
If you are still considering taking the jump I would suggest that you get a few more guitars under your belt and then take a few to someone of knowledge from the building aspect and to some good players for the playing and tonal aspect.Ask them to be brutally honest. If you don't get rave reviews at both places and also from within your own gut I think you should work on to improve things. Take all reviews by family and friends with a grain of salt.They can be easily impressed and inclined to make you feel very skilled.
This period in time is known as the second golden era of guitars. The companies are very aware that the consumer has a very large selection of excellant guitars to pick from and most of them at least on the high end are producing good product. There are tons of one man shops out there making super guitars and it's a hard job to get to the stage of making a real go of the whole process.Mind you all that has been said is by someone did not make the jump and really does not know all the perils. I just know that I am happy being an amateur building a few guitars a year and learning as much as I can about the process. Good luck with your hope and dreams.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Of all the luthiers I know and of the professional ones , the ratio is pretty slim. As a business , it is tough as area demand plays a big part. It took me about 10 years until I became a professional . I am lucky in that I do make a living doing what I love. Trust me , after only 2 instruments you are far from ready to make that leap.
If you do want to do it , you need to hone your skills . Not all builders make good repairmen and vice versa , It takes years of practice and patience to make it . I do not want to deter you but if you jump in when you are not ready , it can be a horrible experience. You have to not just look at what the workmanship level is but being a business means just that, you have to learn the trade and business skills on top of that. Learn that your time is valuable . I have to say that it takes money to make money. The overhead , can be costly. You need insurance both for your tools and shop along with coverage for the instruments that are in the shop at any given time.
My best advice is get as much training as you can. I was lucky as I got hooked up with Martin at a time when they would help train you , and they no longer do that . I also took classes with Dave Nichols in Malone NY. I learned Inlay and sharpened my repair and building skills there . I also had a chance with some great people that mentored me along the way. Steve Kovacik , of NY was a big help early . Mike Dickinson , Dale Trach and Jeremy Trach from Martin as well and Dave Musselwhite , Dave Strunk . I cannot let this go without talking about ASIA and how the symposiums were also a big help. Alex Gray was also a great reference with my Gibson learnings . Matt Creter of Jonestown help me with electrics. So you can see I was lucky with the connections I made and the training and help I received.
The key is to get exposed to as much as you can . Learn what you are good at and what you are not. Do not take on a job that you are not 100% comfortable doing. Buy as many yard sale guitars as you can and make them playable. You have to pay your dues so to speak. Good luck to you. I know I am so lucky , every morning I go to the shop ( 55 feet ) from the house. I have enough work to keep me busy and love this business , as where else can you do this , and have many of your customers become your friends.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I just started chapter 1 last night! It's great so far. Made By Hand, by Mark Freudenfelder was also great. A bit different though.

Just for Mr Whiteman (as fine a guitar builder as you could hope to meet) who is stalking me on here

I think this is probably the dream of many to start this expensive, infuriating, obsessive wood accumulating thing with the hope of escaping from the grind of the office, the marketing speak, the BS and the 'career in a suit'...me included.

Having only completed one instrument, trashed number two and salvaged bits for number three, with grandiose plans already afoot for 4 and 5, coupled with a pile of zoot thats growing and sucking away the pennies... its SOOOO easy to get carried away with the romance of this thing. The reality is slightly different, the demands of doing this full time are i guess as immense and presuurised as any job in the city, often without the income that keeps the wolves from the door.

I would hate to put anyone off, but in reality its a just like any busines, fierce competition, incredible choice for the seeker of a high end instrument many of which would easily satisfy their needs... so all the issues of finance, marketing, sales, exhibits that come when turning a hobby into a job could probably erode much of what we hobbyists find so appealing about building.

I guess like most things its best when you start young and by the time you have the responsibilities and financial commitments the experience and skills necessary to comand the necessary price premium that actally gives you an income.

I joke about this dream with the fine mentioned Mr Whiteman... i have always said the pro scenario is not for me... but I have never said no to a sort of semi-pro scenario....

For me, I am sort of formulating a plan - being also 40 ish... and with commitments to family, its impossible to jump out of the rat race and into the wilderness of building - you need aplan, and not least about 10-15 years is my guess at my build rate, to get to a standard that is good enough to create interest... so plan is retire at 55-58 and then do 2-3 days a week.. best of both worlds and it gives me the time to develop the skils and enjoy the learning process... unless i win the lottery of course!

It's ok to dream. But there will be many years between doing this for the first time, and going pro.

I recently met a very talented stained glass maker who did that for a hobby, and once she made the decision to go pro, it took her seven years to get there. There is a lot to stained glass, but there is even more to building instruments, in terms of the various tasks involved, as well as the tooling required. Not a slam on that craft, just a statement of fact.

If the goal is to build great guitars, what is required to make them, is a very thorough knowledge of every aspect of what goes into a great guitar. Engineering the optimum end result will not occur by chance or luck.

I'm currently finishing up number two. My goal is to build kit guitars for friends that are already familiar with me and what I've made (so there are no surprises), and to introduce a scratch step into each concurrent instrument.

Not to scare you away, but I started building electric guitars from parts in 1990. I had a job as a setup tech in a guitar factory for about a little while during the 90's. around that time, I worked in a Martin dealership, for 5 years, where I did minor repairs under the supervision of an authorized Martin repair guy. It was around that time I got the urge to build a kit guitar, but it took me 14 years to build up the courage to do it. I wasn't going to do it unless I was sure what I built was something I would want to keep. During that time, I read everything I could and accumulated yard sale tools. Even after I started I wasn't sure I was going to get a keep-able result, until after the strings were on. but I have a piano tuner friend that says I'm the biggest perfectionist he's ever met.

and my first acoustic build contained plenty of mistakes. but the end result was good enough, so that I have a handful of friends that want me to build them one too, now. I think of them as investors in my education. I'm honest and up front with all of them about my limitations.

I'm 41 now. I don't plan to ever make a full living from this. I started way too late. But I'd like to build them occasionally, and in retirement, for supplement income. Doing it this way affords me the luxury of time. I can spend 10 months to make a guitar good, if I want, so long as it is a hobby and for friends. If I made the switch to generating most of my income from it, there'd be a whole lot of pressure on myself to produce. I would not make that switch until I was certain that I could deliver, in a timely manner, and with minimal mistakes. I'm not ready for that yet.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

The 130 or so luthiers that display at Healdsburg are a select group. Out of that group, I'd say there are about a dozen who can support a family with a middle class lifestyle with their income from lutherie alone.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

That estimate sounds way low. Are you sure? Depending on what part of the country you live in, you could make around $50K-ish and support a family and be solidly middle class.

IMO a more stark distinction would be the ratio of how many luthiers there are in the world at all, to how many luthiers there are like the ones at Healdsburg. The bar is high. And anyone that wants to put up the money to pay for a custom instrument is going to be aware of what the standard is.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

What Howard said.

I recently heard a quote form Beethoven: "Nobody should compose music unless they find it makes them very uncomfortable not to." If you really need to build guitars, nothing Howard or I or anybody else can say will talk you out of it.

I've often said that there are two things that everybody knows about musicians: they're all crazy, and none of them have any money. We're trying to make a living building expensive things to sell to crazy people who have no money, so what does that make us?

That's about right. $52K median in 2008, although that doesn't count the cash value of employee benefits, which can be substantial. I'll stand by my previous statement.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

interesting number ... so 52k is the median for middle class in the US ??? .... if so, then take all your expenses and taxes and health care out of that gross number, and then see what you have left to live on - likely around 2.5 to 3K a month. Also think what you have to do to make the 52K ... at 4K a guitar, thats 13 .. less per means more to make ...

I pretty much agree with Howard on the numbers ... arent too many of us making a solid living supporting a family on one income in this business. Most of us either do something else, or have spouses who work as well.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

As a business , I have to agree with Howard. A few do make a good living. most need a working spouse to help out. I am lucky I have more than the guitar building in my business to make my means . Being diversified helps me a lot . If I had to subside on just builds I would be struggling.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Howard's statement was about the exhibitors at Healdsburg, not all Luthiers.

Howard, you know them better than I do. but about 12 are only generating income from luthiery and about 118 of them have to have another job?

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Unfortunately Howard is right on...Lutherie can be an awesome hobby but a challenge as a business.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Very good advice, and thank you for it. But, I'm most definitly not going to be quitting my day job to take up luthiery full time. I have a very good career in the pharmaceutical industry that I enjoy. That said I am looking towards retirement, and feel that a business based on my other love, woodworking would be fun at that time. I find guitar making interesting and fun with lots of room for creativity, something I don't get in my day job; so maybe this is what I should do later in life. I will take your advice and use it over the years and hopefully by the time I'm ready to retire I will be a good enough luthier that I can sell a few guitars each year.

Thanks again.

My only income is my luthier business. I am one of the lucky ones.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

This is where I'm coming from also. I wouldn't quit my current career, I like it and it is putting food on the table, a bike in the driveway, a kid through college, and a guitars in my hands. I like the semi-pro idea, but as stated before not until I retire from my current career, also around 55-58.

Thanks for the advice.

Alan,

Great line, I love it!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Tony, you are confusing gross sales with income. Many of the people doing this underestimate their costs and overheads by a lot.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

You are right Filippo Morelli , I do build , make supplies , teach , repair , sell wood , make parts . Building is just a small part . So I guess you are correct , not many that just build and make a living at it . As Allan's post said . I agree but it is still a great business to be tied into . How many other businesses can say that most of the customers become friends .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Which means you have to sell even more.

I had a similar idea about a career change once:
About 12 years ago I was fed up with my engineering job in CA (project management in flight test) so I quit and moved back to TN so I could be near my family. I decided I would do what I wanted to do so I started making custom furniture. I was a finish carpenter before I was an engineer so it wasn't a hard transition. After about 6 months I had plenty of business and sold my work at a premium price but wasn't making much money (income). So I started repairing guitar amps (mostly) on the side to get a bit more money. Next thing I know I'm working like 90 hours a week and still not doing very well.

I sat down, reviewed all my records, and did some real critical thinking. It became obvious to me that if I was going to continue making custom furniture I would have to significantly increase my throughput. I was using a process that I very much enjoyed but it was nowhere near efficient enough for a pro. I figured out what it would take to improve my design, cut, assembly, and finish processes and decided it pretty much sounded like work

Long story short I went back to engineering for the day job but dumped the management stuff I disliked so much. It took about 5 years of learning but now I work in a R&D lab doing hardware engineering (EE) which I love and I've got the pay and benefits so I can build my guitars too. I'm serious about building guitars and hope to sell some pretty soon but I'm under no illusions about where my income is going to come from.

Just my 2 cents. For anyone who wants to pursue luthiery as a profession I say good luck and God speed. You'll for sure have my respect if you succeed.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Personally, I must be one of those who are unconfortable with not composing. Being professional Luthier is my dream since so long now, I can't see myself doing anything else. But you probably need to be clever about it and make a real plan.

I've always been told training to become a luthier takes about 10 years. I think the best way to go is probably the slow one:

First as a hobby, so you can take the time to enjoy and learn/develop the process, and develop you own product/style.

Once you start to really know what you're doing/what you want to do (because lutherie can be a lot of things) and really understand how things work: go semi-pro, with another job on the side. During that time you can still rely on a safe income to help passing the learning process of the marketing/business skills, and all the mistakes that will be done on every level possible. If you're lucky enought, maybe you'll get to go luthier full-time.

During all stages, being in contact with other pros and musicians that won't be affraid of telling you if you're instruments are as good as playing with a toothbrush is a must. Taking classes or go apprentice if you have the possibility, and keep seaching/learning from all sources possible. Lutherie isn't only woodwork: it's also permanent brainstorm

But hey, I'm a beginner , so I'll meet you guys at the guitar shows in 10/15 years!

From what I have seen of the business, many that do make a living in the business are doing a healthy repair trade along with building.
and some are profiting from other areas of endeaver related to luthery, ie, selling materials , tools jigs , instruction ,, etc, etc,
as far as what amount of income it takes to make a living, here in new york a few years back it was published, if you make $50,000 a year , and have a wife and two children , you are living in poverty.
Jody

"...if you make $50,000 a year , and have a wife and two children , you are living in poverty."

And that disgusts me. I could rant about that for the better part of an hour but I'll spare you guys (your welcome).

Since the time I decided I was going to be a pro luthier for life I've known that 1) I have the ability to do get this done due to sheer luck and circumstance, with my added insanity downright passion for this, 2) That I WILL get there eventually as a result of 1. I know this is going to get done unless I suddenly die before I get to. Until then, I can't possibly do luthiery by itself and expect to survive. That's why I'm getting a career in the culinary field (my "other talent") to feed the genius monster inside me that wants to do this. I'm 18 now so I guess I got time to learn and play things right so I can phase into luthiery as a career later, but it'll prolly be soon. The adventure begins.....

Thanks guys so much for slapping me in the face with the iron digits of reality. The truth hurts sometimes, but hey, it makes life interesting.

For either luthiery or a career as a musician I think you are right on. Complete your education, have a marketable skill that will put bread on the table and then give it a go. That's what I tell kids that ask.
I was a United Way campaign chair a couple years ago and when health insurance, home and car upkeep, rent or house payments, food and other essentials were factored in $40,000 was considered the threshold for "working poor" for a family of four.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.