Official Luthiers Forum!

Bill and Chris...that was a funny one!

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

Brad,
Did you also do the fabrication on this machine. What type of welding rig do you use to weld the Aluminum?
The Bugler Bender,
Roll me a side, wood ya?

You know, this whole "some will pass the plans around" thing has a bite u in the arse effect. Here u have guy who wants to build guitars for a profit, but won't shell out some bucks for a set of plans that will help him in his endevours. I think life has a way of dealing with those types, and I would not worry about them. To me, plans are the easiest and most profitable way to go. I would pay $100 for them. That price alone will cause many to reconsider giving them away. You will never make that markup on the machine. Especially when you consider ur time. And most of us enjoy jig building!

I'd be interested too because the best way is with a high frequency T.I.G. machine with a water cooled torch. Any other way is asking for cracks down the road.

I'm with Mike on the plans. I'd be willing to shell out $100 for a good set. After all, a man should be decently compensated for his R&D efforts.

Brad, "roll out" a few sets of plans if you wish once you've finalized your design. You've already got 'em sold!

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I fabricated the bender with a wirefeed gas mig welder using steel. I considered aluminum but the extra cost wasn't worth it for a prototype. I had several areas that I had to rework so it was easy to rework the steel and when everything was done I put a coat a paint to make it look nice.

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

Ok, we have all decided Brad will sell plans for $100. Anyone caught "passing" them around will recieve a serious tongue lashing and be banished to the electric guitar forum for 6 months. On to the suggestions. The waist caul needs to be adjustable. Can't see how one design would fit all. The length of the cantelever arms need to be extendable. How do you expect me to do harp guitars on this ?

I love ur design... Let's get on with it!

To tell you the truth I would think steel square tubing maybe a tad thicker then 1/16" would be a better choice then alum. not to mention the cost factor. But I like things to be built on the heavy side and I would think the weight would work with you on the opperation of the bender. It's like those weight lifting benches made from thin tubing. I know they're safe but still, I just don't trust them. But that's me.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Brad,
How quickly do you bend your sides with this new bender? Have you broken any? What temperatures are you running? Do you vary the temperatures between waist, bout, and cut-away?
Art

Nelson might be able to add his thoughts (Nelson...where are you).

Bending probably takes 3-5 minutes for each side. The bender can be loaded hot. I like to bend dry so I don't have too cook off extra water. The bending blankets are not in contact with the wood before bending so bending can start right away. As the bending starts then the heat starts to soak through the slats into the wood. When the process is finished the wood can be removed with the blankets still hot and the new wood put in place for the next side.

Temperatures...I shoot for 300 deg. Same temp at all times for all woods. If the wood is more difficult to bend then the bending process can be slowed down. I have not tried all woods but am using the Taylor bending process to guide my process. They bend at 300 deg. with two speeds.

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

I broke a cutaway side when I forgot to release the air pressure prior to the bending arm when removing the bent side.
I normally shoot for 250-300F on flamed maple but started using the "smoke signal" when my thermocouple probe quit working.
Watching for the first good puffs of steam is a pretty good indicator at least in my book.
Probably should preheat the blanket as Brad does but I've been bending the lower bout cold under slat/air cylinders tension.
Then apply the heat to all three blankets (full length blanket under the slats and both waist and cutaway cauls.
The cutaway blanket doesn't really contact the sandwich until you start bending the cutaway.
About three minutes elapsed to this point and then let it cook another 6-8 minutes or so.
I do use a Variostat to up the voltage to 130VAC when bending and then drop it back to about 85VAC for cooking.
Using 5 watt/sqin blankets.
Sorry I can't give you better temp readings but I've never found a really satisfactory way of achieving precise readings.
Seems like it's tough to keep the probe in direct contact with the wood where it needs to be.
Brad had a good idea on probe placement that he might want to share with you. I need to try it.
Nelson

Brad, another option would be to go into full production but farm out the fabrication to a local shop. There should be lots of metal fabrication shops that could crank these out for you. You could do a limited production run and see what kind of response you get. Might be a good sideline for a year or two. Then you reach saturation and close her down, maybe reverting to the plans only option.

That is an interesting idea. Still, copy the plans for $4, sell for $100, kind of hard to believe one could achieve the same profit margin (%) by building them. Not to mention all the headaches of order taking, packing, working with the fabricator, mailing, etc, etc. Just ask Lance about the templates. Yet I realize some will not want to build one and are only too happy to have the option to buy one prefabricated. Then there are people like me who can afford them, but want not to surprize my wife with yet another big purchase and would rather build it up over time. It is a hobby afterall. Take the Fox bender. Plans are like $30. It took me 1 month to build it. Bought bits and peices here and there and it came in under the radar. My lovely wife never even noticed it till she walked out in the shop and said "whats that?!?" and I said, "what, this OLD thing?"

In all seriousness, unless one is willing to patent it (and defend the patent), one is better off selling the plans. Also, find a fabricator who will cut all the 80/20 pieces to size for those who want a kit. It will not be long before other folks are building them and selling them. Joe's CNC Machine is such an excellent example of how to do something like this right. In the end, Joe's machine gets better and better and continues to make more and more money. Perhaps if there is any success at all, then Brad could get a sponsored forum here (he pays for it) that allows us to discuss ideas, problems, etc. Might make a good model to promote future development ideas! OLF gets some sponsor money, and we all get to be involved (assuming we bought the plans). Go over to Joes CNC to see what I mean.

Mike

Lots of very interesting ideas. Thanks for all the feedback. I am encouraged that many of you see the potential in this bender.

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

What's the advantage of making it out of alu.? You can get 14 gage(.083") 1"X24ft. tubing for $35. Weld it with a $90 wire feed welder. I would think the weight of the steel would work with you when bending. And you can paint it what ever color you like. If you pay fabricators to make them then they probably will make more money on them then Brad. I don't think to many people are going to pay $800 for a bender when you can bend a side on a much cheaper bender with tension like the Doolin.
I'd check with LMI and John Hall to see how many Fox style benders they have sold over the years and that might give you some idea as to the market. But those are a lot cheaper to make then this bender. Then wonder how many of those people would buy a more costly bender.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see Brad asking for ideas on how much money he should charge.

As Brad noted, he's already disclosed all of this, with enough detail that any of us jig-crazy types could make one like it. Most importantly, let's give Brad the opportunity to see what his thoughts are on this. Is this, "hey look at the cool jig I made; here's how you can make one..." (free info, offered freely), or an entrepreneurial venture, to sell plans, or kits, or units.

I am extremely grateful for all of the tips, advice, jig ideas and plans, sources of supply, and general know-how that have been shared freely among members of this and several other luthier forums. Without all of this sharing, there would be a few hundred secretive and proprietary luthiers around the world and probably no explosive "golden age of lutherie." With the sharing, we have literally thousands of brothers and sisters in the craft, unprecedented openness, collaboration, cooperation, and camaraderie - and "viral" evolution of the craft.

Everything I have come up with (whether I'm re-inventing something unknowingly, or actually the first to describe some technique or method) has been placed on the table, for all to share as they see fit. I'm hoping this bender (for which Brad has already thoughtfully acknowledged a number of other generous luthiers for many of the concepts contained within it), is placed into the "open source" category, by Brad.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Chris--It probably depends on the individual as to preference in type of construction.
Here is a comparison between extruded aluminum vs. steel construction.
http://www.8020.net/T-Slot-1.asp
It's heavily biased towards aluminum, of course, but does bring up some interesting points.
As far as weight being an advantage, Brad built the prototype out of 1" square steel that measures about 18 gauge and maybe even a little thinner than that.

I did notice that only a light touch on the bending arm is required when bending the upper bout after it comes up to temp. This depends a lot on the geometry of the various pivot points relative to the tangent of the particular area of the sandwich coming into contact with the mold during the bending. Brad can tell you about the challenge involved in this. The 200 lbs, give or take, of tension on the bands can work for or against you as far as effort required to make the bends. There is a lot of pressure required on the waist caul, for example, because it's working basically at a right angle to the tension. Not a problem because of the screw press behind the caul. I'm now a firm believer that band tension on the outside of the bend is the KEY.

Builders talk about the speed of various types of benders. My take on that is what if it takes 10 or 20 or 30 minutes to bend sides? That's a small percentage of the 100 plus hours for a small operator to build an instrument. A lot of the total bending time is the cooking after the bend during which other tasks can be performed. Getting the wood ready for bending probably takes more time than the actual bending.

I'm currently prepping the bodies of my current build for binding after fitting the tops and backs. I am pleasantly surprised (maybe even a little giddy) at how much flatter and smoother are the sides bent on the Way Bender. Even the tight cutaway, which can be a bugger to sand, is smooth as a babies behind. I did not thin the cutaway area.

Nelson

I agree with u Dennis. I am not trying to set a price. I am trying more to focus on ideas that will benefit Brad (the most) while at the same time advancing the art. If I thought that patenting the device, manufacturing the device, and all the rest was the best for Brad, I would say so. I am not sure it is though. I agree with u on the "open source " approach, but with a profit benefit to Brad. That would encourage others to invest in their own ideas as well.

Like I said earlier, it all depends on whether he wants to build guitars or build jigs.

If the price is right, I will buy. But given the market size, I have doubts.

Mike

Again, I am hoping that this is given and received much the same way as the Fox bender, Doolin bender, Doolin adjustable neck joint, Fleishman adjustable neck joint, Turner variant on the Howe Orme adjustable neck joint, Goltz adjustable neck joint, Klepper buttressed bracing, Carruth's and Siminoff's knowledge of plate movements, resonant frequencies, tuning a box...

In other words, offered to the community with an altruistic spirit, not worrying about profit or personal benefit. As it turns out, the aforementioned luthiers have their names mentioned so frequently by other luthiers citing their creative spirit and generosity, that a very positive "buzz" is generated for those luthiers, elevating them and branding them in the industry. Frankly, if they were calculating, they would have given away their knowledge in order to become household names among luthiers and savvy buyers - more value that they would have received if they had sold their knowledge. As it turns out, those names I've named are all very cool and giving people who (I don't believe) calculated any personal benefit - it just came to them.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

This thread has taken a nice turn to idea of taking good ideas to market etc. The initial intent of this thread wasn't really about the marketing of new bender more about the improvement of a bending process. With the interest shown it has evolved into how allow others to build or buy this bender which is an intersting twist.

Here are my few thoughts:

1) Kits - love the idea but I have concluded that if I create kits then I will need to setup the supply chain, sales, and all the other details. Could make a few bucks but would be at the expense of my guitar repairing and building.

2) Sell complete benders. Same issues as kits unless I locate another company that I can partner with to show them my thoughts and let them develop the idea and take it to market. Could have some merit but still a limited market.

3) Plans - probably the easiest for me to pull off but would take more work to iron out the documentation and make sure that the sold plans are complete enough to ensure the product would be good if built to the specs.

4) Offer my ideas freely to the luthier community via forum like this. No money to be made but like Dennis mentioned with Doolin, Fox, Golz, Kleeper, etc...it builds your name and can feel good about the impact for improving the processes of building guitars. This also allows others to refine the machine beyond my initial design.

More to come.....

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

What Filippo said.

You know, some folks (me included) have opined about the cost of specialized tools from various, popular vendors available here. The truth is, those prices represent the fact that we are a relatively small and specialized market. For now, that is just the way it is. Actually, I would not like to see this market grow to wal-mart sizes. What fun would that be?

So, it is what it is. And it is Brad's bender. My only issue is, I want one yesterday!

Hey Brad, did you understand my suggestions about making the waist caul adjustable and the strecher arms extendable?

Mike

The current waist caul is adjustable (up and down and in and out) so I might need to better understand your thoughts. I have not made the trecher arms extendable but this would easily be done. The idea has merits but I would like to know what your are thinking. What would extending the arms bring to the table? (you might be on to something but want to hear your thoughts first)

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

I too would have to agree with Filippo.
And I think Brad sounds like he has a grasp on it.
Myself, I would be fine if Brad just put some more pictures out there and said go ahead guys and run with it. Which is what he might have said.
Even a pictorial of it opperating or a youtube that Nelson might be able to do would work for me. I could figure out the rest. But if he wants to put some drawing files out there or cad drawing files which he has already that would be cool too. I have a free download of ProgeCAD that more then likely can read them.
If he wants to make some cash from it then that's fine too. In these times a little extra to pay the bills can't hurt.
Believe you me I know.
So Brad, If I'm hearing you correctly then you won't mind for some of us using your designs to make a bender or designing one of our own?

Maybe true in some cases, but maybe not. There are folks like Sylvan Wells and Ervin Somogyi that have made it clear that they want financial compensation for disclosing (at least some of) their ideas. Every one of the folks I listed could have done the same (well, Roger Siminoff did write books - probably lost money on the venture though.) It costs very little to have a website with some protected pages, available only to those who have paid a subscription fee. So, no great outlay of cash or time, or legal hassles, or manufacturing woes involved. I have had conversations with most of the folks I listed, and happen to know Grant Goltz pretty well, and I can tell you that at least some of the folks I listed offered their knowledge freely simply because they wanted to share. I think people that have a "giving" spirit themselves get what I'm saying, and those that don't, don't. Filippo, your own spirit of sharing is reflected in my drill press table, with its horizontal and vertical T-track, and even the intersections between T-track pieces hogged-out the same way you showed. I just wanted you to know that I know that you do "get it."

Sharing is fun, it feels good, it fosters friendships and a sense of community.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia