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I'm working on my 4th guitar, and using osage orange. It's a great local tone wood, but the color is not my favorite. I'd like to make it look like ebony or african blackwood.

I could maybe use stain, but all the stains I've used seem to want to run when spraying with lacquer. So, what's the best way to blacken light colored wood without making it look like black plastic?

Thanks,
Phillip

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Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Perfect timing! I am doing exactly the same thing right now. It is being discussed in the thread "Ebonizing Walnut" at the Luthier community, but my specific goal is on Osage Orange. I'll go and post an image in that thread to show you where I have gotten with this.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Whats wrong with using dye on the unfinished wood, then lightly (thats the trick to not letting the colour run) spraying the first couple coats of lac.. until the finish builds a bit, you cant go for the full wet coat, at least tahts my experience.

No pix yet, but one of my students just a did a charcoal burst on a curly maple topped SG - worked just fine. Colour FX dye (alcohol solution) on the raw top, then straight to lac ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hi Tony,

I certainly have not seen or used all the stains and dyes out there, but from my cabinetmaking background, I remember being dissatisfied with black stain on wood, thinking somehow it looked too artificial or kind of a deep blue-black rather than black.

I also am intrigued about playing the role of alchemist and using non-toxic household stuff to achieve it. The author of an online Popular Woodworking article (who has been chasing after a quality black stain for 20 years, and also noted the blue-black in most stains) said "Iron staining, or ebonizing, generally uses a reaction between iron oxide and the natural tannins in wood to create a natural-looking black that is actually created in the fibers of the wood rather than a stain sitting on top. This is why it is so durable. It is integral, not superficial. I have also found it to be very light-fast."


This is my test results on the corner of an Osage Orange guitar back. Progressive steps of tannin tea and iron stain.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Phil, great thread.. and agree with Dennis, good timing.

Dennis, how deep does the stain penetrate? I have been thinking of trying the pearwood dye procedure but have been hesitant because of: lack of time and the density differences in the material.

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

I too hope to do a mahogany neck this season. I am planing on using a black NGR alcohol base with a black epoxy pore fill first. It has been my experience with samples they do tend to look a little blue at first. I'm wondering if the sealer and subsequent coats need soom colour in them too?
Does anyone know what that black pearwood dye process is? I always figured it must be done under pressure or vacuum?
I also hood something about lampblack?
Mike McNerney

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Mike McNerney

Chris, the chemical reaction happens as deep as the ferrous acetate can penetrate the wood, and occurs wherever it meets tannins. So, pressure treating say Oak or Walnut, (that already have a relatively high natural tannin content), it could go very deep. For wood without naturally occurring tannins, I will eventually experiment with vacuum pressure treating wood with the high tannin tea, followed by pressure treating with ferrous acetate. (Not everyone would ever want or need to do this - I have some ideas where it could be cool.)

I'm about to cut into my Osage Orange samples, so I'll find out what a light wash can do in terms of penetration.

I can't duplicate everything in that thread at the Luthier Community, so I'd recommend checking it out. Also, there are a bunch of luthiers getting into vacuum systems and posting info on the ANZLF forum, so I'd recommend a visit there for those that may be thinking of pressure treating with dye or this iron/tannin ebonizing process.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Greetings,

I have a related question.

I am trying to get that good aged look on maple.

Tried Oxidizing with Lye (Oven Cleaner and Drano) and got a silver/yellow/gray color that was not what I was looking for.

Tried using Ferrous Acetate (Steel Wool and Vinegar). Got a deep brown that was too dark and difficult to control the shade if I diluted it. -by the way, burning the steel wool works great and allows it to dissolve very quickly in the vinegar

I remember years ago we used to oxidize maple and cherry for furniture which gave a great look using little purple crystals dissolved in water. This was KMNO4 -Potassium Permanganate. Availible in a little plastic tub in the hardware store as "filter mate", used for sanitizing drinking water filters. Went to the hardware store looking for some and was treated like I was from Mars...

So my question is, In there a commonly available source for Potassium Permanganate ? or am I not limited to chemical supply houses.

If I can't find some, I'll have to resort to being patient and using the sun.

thanks,

-jd

I also wanted to do this to some poplar so I can get a black aspect to my purfling
- timely question.

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

My parents' house had an iron filter for their (high iron content) well water. It used potassium permanganate. So, I'd look somewhere where they sell household water treatment equipment. I also vaguely recall that this stuff can be used to make some sort of explosives, which may be why it is difficult to find.

One of the guys on the ANZLF just showed a before/after shot of a Maple instrument given a natural UV 'suntan' for a couple of hours. I would think it could also destroy an instrument that was in the sun for too long, as heated parts facing the sun would expand at different rates than less exposed parts. I have seen experiments done with coffee used as a stain, but don't know if that is permanent. Joe Sustaire should pop in on this question, as he is creating some of the most beautiful patinas on wood I have seen. I think he's "ragging it on" and using aniline dye, but I'll let him explain what he uses.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Hey jd, do be careful with using the sun to age/color your guitar. I had heard reference to that technique and hung a new build outside my shop to mellow, watching it through the window, very pleased with my build, late evening, low slanting sun and when I went to get it a couple of hours later, the back had two nice big cracks and the bracing was out the binding. So I got me some repair experience!

I like the aged and vintage look so I've taken my inspiration from John How's guitars, check out his website, and have been using TransTint aniline dyes diluted with water. Ragged on and rubbed, different tints to get very subtle sunburst and patina effects. You just have to dive in and start experimenting but it's pretty forgiving, just blend, scrub, and even sand back till you get the look that works for you.

Here is a link to a thread of one of my builds where you can see what I've done, viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22463&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=transtint&start=0 and my method is described on page two I believe.

Hope this helps,
Joe

On my last few builds I have aged spruce tops in the sun to give them some color.

After I put in the rosette and sand the top I put it out for an afternoon which gives a a nice golden hue. This is just the top, not a completed guitar, I do very little sanding of the top after assembly. If it gets a little too light from flushing the binding or finish sanding, the finished box may go outside for an hour or so to touch up the color.

In my experience, Spruce colors up very quickly in the sun, Maple ages much, much slower (which is why I was looking for Chemical assistance). I have a test sample outside that is coming close to the desired color after nearly 3 weeks. It has been more rainy than sunny lately, so it is tucked back under a patio cover and only gets max of 3-4 hours of direct sun a day.

I should add that I am in a very temperate location with a nearly constant cool moist sea breeze.

I'll check out the Aniline dye info linked.

thanks,
-jd

-jd

I've recently run into the use of black hair dye as an ebonizer. It's supposed to be about as black as you can get, penetrates well and is permanent. It's used in woodworking generally but have never used it myself (will soon, as I have a bench top to stain).

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Yes, it would. I now wish I had vacuum-infused the tea and then the ferrous acetate on the raw back and side set, because although I could now bag the back, without great effort that I'm not going to expend, I cannot effectively bag the rims (already bent and assembled.) So at this point, on this guitar, I'm stuck with the depth of soaking/wicking penetration of the tannin tea and ferrous acetate.

There was a company that used to sell Walnut that had been pressure treated with an iron compound to resemble Ebony, and they provided material up to 3/4" thick - and I know that their pressure treatment process involved vacuum. That's why I know for sure that vacuum will greatly help with penetration.



What is the cost of a tanning session at a tanning parlor? I think that's pretty much the UV rays without the infrared that heats up the wood. Might be worth checking into, as I suspect there are many tanning beds that are sparsely used, due to dermatologists spreading the word about the health hazards of UV to human skin.

Also, Joe, the particular example you linked to is one where you had to fight with that particular soundboard's runout, and that may not be the best example (if I may be so bold) of your awesome work. Allow me to link to a thread of yours that shows an "aged" patina that is to die for: Grand Concert for Freegift, Builder Swap (that link jumps right to a particular post within the topic. Scroll down to the 6th image of the body with the neck laid across it.)

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Thanks for all the replies, fellas! And I'm glad others have found this thread useful too.

I have tried the iron-dissolved-in-vinegar trick, and wasn't real satisfied with it. I just remembered something my sawyer told me. He said that osage sawdust would be a good thing to put on our garden because it's so alkaline compared to some woods, like oak. (we have acid soil around here) That probably means the osage would benefit from the "tea" soak technique to add tannin.

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Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Phillip, I did try the ferrous acetate on naked Osage Orange, and it did make a color change, so there must be some tannins in Osage Orange. "Tannic acid" makes it sound like it's acidic, but I'm not sure if the tannins in wood are strictly in an acid form of a compound or not. But the bottom line was that though ferrous acetate can change the color of Osage Orange, the color it changed it to was absolutely awful. Imagine green yellow and charcoal crayons melted together. Yuck! But as you can see from my samples above, you can achieve a deep black using the high-tannin tea.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

The colors Joe has on his finishes now has me pretty motivated to start playing with the trans-tint dies, although I suspect there is a bit of a learning curve integrating a water and Alchohol soluble die into a french polish finish.

I have tried using a little orange and garnet shellac around the perimeter before building with blonde, but the results have been really subtle and not nearly as impressive as what Joe is showing - overall I have been happiest with a suntan on Spruce. You can even get a bit of a burst effect by stacking a few layers of window screen over the center area to partially shade it.

The yellow-green color on the O-O should eventually change to black as the Iron continues to oxidize, it just takes a lot longer without the tannins.

-jd