Official Luthiers Forum!

Ok - this is a bit painful and embarrassing - but....

I know NOTHING about planes.

Seriously - I know nothing about them. (other than owning a finger plane that I use on my braces)

And now after watching videos and reading threads, I think I need one for shooting my back sets to get a good seam.

- I don't know what size I need - I think I need a #7 for shooting my back sets - but what the heck to I know
- I don't know what it means to tune one.
- I don't know if you sharpen them like you sharpen a chisel
- I don't know how to flatter (true?) one
- I don't know how to "care and feed" one
- Do you have to take them for walks?

I have a method I've been using for joining my backs - but it appears I need to learn about planes and get one or two. (something for shooting my back sets and something for planing down my sides for a Manzer wedge I want to build)

So -

1) Educate me
2) Show me where I can get a decent plane (or two) (ebay? online stores, etc?)

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

I have recently fallen in love with my planes. I have a newer Stanley block plane and a flea market Stanley #5. The #5 has a long enough sole for me to get a good edge when I am joining tops...

The best bet is for you to keep an eye out and get a couple cheapies to mess around with. Get a good sharpening stone (my stones cost 5x what I paid for the planes) and go on YouTube to see tutorials on sharpening and tuning them.

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

Guitar centre joints are not very long, in the greater scheme of things. A No. 5 or better still a No. 5.5 is long enough to do centre joints. It's also handy in that it's an 'all rounder' and can easily be used for truing Necks and even thiocknessing plates. A No. 6 or No. 7 is a little unwieldy for those tasks although perfectly suited for jointing.
If you buy a relatively expensive plane such as a Clifton. Lie Nielsen or Veritas it should not need tuning. Buying an old Stanley or Record off the bay is risky. If you are in the States I suggest that you get in contact with a certain Walt Q at Brass City records. He's well known on the woodworking forums, is very reasonable with his prices, knows his stuff on old tools, will not supply junk or tools that are in bad condition.

Personally I like a #7 jointer but a #6 smothing plane is fine. a #5 jack plane will work but leaves you open to some error if you are not sure how th shoot the boards.

That's right although I think that used old planes can be a real bargain, even if you have to tune them.

If you buy new, but cheaper than for example Clifton, Lie Nielsen or Veritas, you run no risk at all: you'll have to tune them anyway. What means: remove the surplus paint you'll find near the mouth and the frog, smooth the surface which the frog sits on and last but not least true the sole. OK I forgot to mention the blade which is a thing apart.

The really cheap planes cost less than a good (or a decent) blade. Needless to say that you should avoid those.

For truing the sole I use a thick (8mm) not tempered glass (tempered glass is not that flat as non tempered glass) using mounting spray-glue to stick sanding paper on it. I put the blade in the plane but retract it in order to not touch the sanding paper. The I start to "plane" down the sole on the sandpaper. It is important to apply even pressure, and the sandpaper must be cleaned up frequently and must be replaced before it gets unevenly dull!
Frequent control of the sole with a straightedge is a must.

I start with grit 60 and work down to 80- 100- 120- 180- 240- 320- grit.

To speed up things as a first step you may start by holding the sole against a big belt sander.

The time used to true a plane sole grows exponentially with it's size. So it might be a good idea to not start with a Nr.7 plane which could be quite frustrating if you have to true it's sole without the help of a good friend called beltsander.

Here are some pictures of my "plane sole planing". It doesn't matter if you don't read Spanish (I explained the important things here above. Caliper shows hundredth millimeters) just look at the pictures: you'll see how the unevenness of the Stanley's sole is getting more even through the process.

Sharpening a plane blade basically is the same a s sharpening a chisel: the flat side (opposite to the bevel) should be like a mirror at it's edge. The bevel angle is according to the plane (with "normal" Stanley planes normally 25°).
Except for some special purposes I make a micro-bevel (1-3 slight final strokes on the polishing stone). For all sharpening, I use a guide, I'm just not enough experienced to do it well without a guide and within a reasonable amount of time

$400+ for L-N

WOW - that's even out the the "ask for it for Christmas" category.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

If you are going the Stanley/Record route DONT buy new. It's not that they can't be made to work well but the better option is to buy an old pre war plane. They were made a little better than the current offerings. Blades on these, whilst thin are good enough. An old but well set up Stanley/Record is good enough to do extremely fine work. You don't need the LN and Veritas but if money is abundant ( ) why not.
Then there is the wooden plane option.
This could be a long thread.

Paul, I also need to get a bottom plate together. A while back I bought a book on Japanese joinery that has amazing stuff on hand made planes. Planes of every size, length and shape can be made to suit any job. These are made out of squared hardwood to which a blade is set into at a desired angle and backed up with a wedge, My plan is to get a piece of granite or marble countertop material, and bolt one of these planes to the edge of it and run the board past the blade using the sole of the plane as a back gauge. I have a broken Footprint plane with a salvagable blade that I'm going to set into a hardwood sole of about 12 length or so and try it out. Also keep in mind that if you mirror the cut and then invert the plates together, having the cut a couple of thou. out of square isn't going to hurt.

Be ware cabinet grad granite and marble may or may not be true flat over its length and width. Typically cabinet grad has a tolerance of +/-.01 over all. in other words the machinery used to grind and polish cabinet grad is not maintained to the same accuracy that they use for precision ground slabs and it may have a ever so slight bowling. You really want +/-.0001" ideally for truing planes. Now that said I have found cabinet grade granite that over 12-15" was good to go but you need to check it to be sure. Now a 12 x 12 precision ground granite slab is pretty reasonable and well worth investing in.

Michael, you have an excellent idea regarding a granite plate. In my daytime "career" we use surface plates. Here's something
that could be adapted for shooting purposes....

https://www.shoprutlandtool.com/webapp/ ... ctId=73111

Yep that is your typical precision ground granite block. Here at my day job we have (4) 48" x 84" x 6" thick precision ground granite QC tables and we have then reground to tolerance every 2 years

I have a lot of hand planes that I have purchased but for over 99% of what I do I use the wooden hand planes that I made myself. I made my first hand plane after watching an episode of WoodWorks by David Marks about making planes. I believe that he showed a pretty typical Krenov style plane. It did not work well but after I made a couple of bodies and figured out what was going on I was more that satisfied. Hand planes are very easy to make and can be made in about two hours. I highly recommend Hock blades created for this purpose. They run about $50.00 or so but it is a lifetime investment. I have a much better feel for the planes I made myself than store bought planes. I also have no fear of modifying them or making new bodies for specific tasks. For practice you could even scrounge some old metal plane blades and build bodies around them. I did this once and it was ok but blades with chip breakers made for wooden plane building work much better.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

Yes, wooden planes can be great to use.
May come in use:

http://linuxplane.awardspace.com/

May I suggest Dave Fincks "Making & Mastering Wood Planes". Dave just reprinted this book. It is just full of great woodworking info as well as being IMO the definitive work on this subject.


The David Marks episode on Woodworks is pretty good. They edited out a lot of good stuff though.
I have eliminated chip breakers with thick irons on my planes. They didn't want to do it on that episode because they wanted to stay somewhat conventional.

I haven't found this to be true. I make all my planes now without chip breakers. A chip breaker does not break chips. It is a shaving deflector. Some suggest that it supports a thin iron but hard to see how this would work as the iron is being pushed away from the chip breaker. It might pre-load a thin iron. With a thick iron it is a non issue. A shaving is a few thousands thick, the chip breaker is any where from a 1/64" to a 1/16". The shaving or chip is broken way before it ever hits the chip breaker. All the illustrations showing the shaving being broken by the chip breaker are not what is happening. The front of the mouth is what is critical to breaking the chip. ( cutting angle is also a factor) The mouth opening needs to be very small.
BTW : If anyone is thinking of buying a Lie Neilson block plane you can ask them to give you one with a tight mouth opening. I have had them send them to me with openings I could file myself to get a nice tight opening.

Wood planes are great. They especially fit in with Luthiery. Most Luthiers have shops that are well controlled with regards to humidity so wood planes behave well in that setting. May I also suggest to you wood plane making folks or would be plane makers the wood Granidillo.
The holy grail of plane making woods. More stable than Mahogany, heavy, dense. No need for a added sole.
I can make a plane for under $10. It is like making you own guitar instead of buying one and once you make a couple you will understand the finer points of planes in general and the principles apply to any and all planes whether they be wood or metal.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Paul-
You didn't say what power tools you have in your shop- if any. A power jointer can change some of your immediate hand-plane requirements.

Also, you didn't say whether you want to build the guitar using only hand tools.

I've got a whole drawer (large drawer) full of hand planes, have bought and refurbished auction planes, etc -it's lots of fun and few things in woodworking are as satisfying to me as the 'hiss' of taking a tissue-thin shaving from a board. That said....
just to be contrary......

If you are mainly concerned with shooting edges on plates, you can get away with one of the 'sandpaper' solutions for a guitar or two. If you are also willing to use sandpaper and a block (preferably metal) to flatten/arch your fingerboard, you have removed two of the big reasons to get a jointer-length plane.

(BTW, when you do decide to get a jointer plane (or a bench/jack plane), you could add the ECE/Primus wood-body planes to your potential shopping list. Fantastic blade adjustment mechanism and blades. They sell on eBay, though you may have to be patient to hit a bargain.)

You CAN shoot edges with a shorter-body plane- it is just a lot more work and takes more time and more checking, marking, etc. I've trued up gluing surfaces for spliced headstocks and similar jobs using a sharp block plane and a machinist's square. So you could certainlyget away with a 'bench' plane if you have one around.

A small block plane is a must- a Stanley 60 1/2 is good, though they do tend to crack at the sides of the mouth, especially if some over-eager person has 'flattened' or 'cleaned up' the sole to excess. A plane is not a mirror (e.g. corrugated plane soles)- it needs to be mostly flat, no more.

I have a bunch of Stanley block planes as well as a couple of LeeValley Veritas blocks- the one I grab most often for shaving linings, etc is the Veritas 'Apron' plane
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46791&cat=1,41182
I also have the Veritas block plane
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32685&cat=1,41182
Both are excellent. I find the Veritas block plane a bit on the heavy side, and generally grab one of the 60 1/2 Stanleys instead.
You could even get by with a basic new Stanley block plane till you have more cash.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41228&cat=1,41182

A couple of asides-
Get a good setup for sharpening (sandpaper aka scary sharp, or decent stones including a flat finishing stone like Arkansas, and a strop, and a sharpening guide/jig). A cheap plane can work well (for short intervals) if it's sharp- but you will have to sharpen it often. A better blade reduces the frequency, not the necessity of sharpening.
A high-quality replacement blade can often make a big difference in the performance of something like a Stanley.
As mentioned by previous posters, eBay can be a minefield- 'used-up' blades ground too short, planes 'tuned up' for quick sale with a heavy hand on a belt sander,blades with the backsides pitted beyond use- you see 'em all. Better to deal with a reputable used (working, not 'collectible') plane dealer.
A good quality straightedge and a shorter plane can do for levelling necks and the like.
Internet search for 'plane tuneup' or similar will get you lots of info on what to do with that auction treasure.
Cheers
John