Official Luthiers Forum!

In my search for a decent waterborn finish and after much disappointed with KTM-9's ability to deliver a hard finish that cures in an acceptable period of time I decided to ask before wasting some more time and money.

What do you guys think/recommend?

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

The KTM-SV sure appeals to me. Since I have no experience spraying, not sure if it's a wise choice for me. Anyone have a thought on that?

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I also looking at em6000 and wondering how it has been by those who have used it. I can go to a good finish room and great teacher in the boss, but long drive everyday for the process and gas is getting higher. That said, I love hanging out at his shop when I or he has the time.

Peter,

I have some of the EmTech but haven't used it yet. I had just bought a gallon of the USL (now discontinued) when the EmTech became available and needed to use it up. I will say that I've been very satisfied with the USL and Jeff Weiss says that the EmTech is a better version of the USL. I'll be doing the next batch with the EmTech and have high expectations for it. It's supposed to be harder and require less cure time than the USL and have complete burn in for repairs (as does USL). It was recommended to me by a very experienced builder who's done a number of guitars with the EmTech and has been very pleased with the results.

It's made by Target Coatings and they are having a sale now on many of their products. I think the EmTech is one of them.

_________________
Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Peter, I finished 2 guitars with EM6000 late last year. I was pleased with the results. I waited 2 weeks before buffing. I normally wait 3 to 4 with nitro. I'm still using nitro pending the long term durablilty, or kinda long term durability of EM6000. One guitar is owned and used regularily by a gigging musician, the other is a friend who flys with his guitar all the time. I tried KTM9 and wasn't impressed. I don't know about the KTM-SV

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I've got a gallon each of the EM8000 sealer and the EM6000 Lacquer both of which I have yet to use. I have used their water based grain filler and am very pleased with it. I bought the other two items with full intention to use them based upon the experiences I've read of other luthiers in both Target Coating's forum and this one. Is the KTM-SV a new product?

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I've been spraying nitro since being dissapointed with the earlier rounds of WB finishes and recently decided to give it another trial. The current WB finishes seem much better. I needed an easy quick satin finish for my roots guitar and decided to try EM6000. It seems to do the job nicely although I think I'll use regular gloss for everything but the last couple of coats. I started filling pores with CA and then doing a final wipe of 50/50 Z-poxy and Alcohol just to make sure the color stays consistent. I just very lightly scuff sand the Z-poxy and then start spraying the em6000. I do about 4 to 5 coats a day with 45 minute or so between. I don't do much leveling until day 2 and after. I usually do 4 days sanding a good portion of it off between the later coats. It give a very nice thin coating and it's harder than it used to be but hopefully they will make more progress in the hardness factor although I think it stands up pretty well. I just ordered a new fuji hvlp so the next few will be using that and I have high hopes. It is very nice not having to deal with nitro and the target coatings are a little less expensive as well.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Thanks guys,
from what I hear EM 600 may be worth a try!

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Well, I'm liking the EM6000 versus nitro (what I've used in the past). To me it appears to be as hard, buffs out nicely and of course has WAY less VOC's.

I just re-finished my maple/cedar GA size guitar (still have to get strings on it) and I shot some pictures tonight of it as the outside light was great.

Just so you know, I don't have a buffer and the guitar was just buffed by hand. Actually, here was my total finishing schedule. Sprayed 8 coats, let it sit for 3 weeks. Level sanded with 800 3M gold, then whet to OOOO steelwool, than the buffing compounds (just two, a fine and extra fine from Mohawk). That's it. Mind you, I could have done a bit better job of the leveling, but I was really just trying to get it done.

Anyway, here are the pictures, click on them to make them bigger. What I like is the fact that you can see the reflection of the neck as it goes up , first picture on the heal, second one full reflection on the body.





And one of the headstock.



We'll see what it's like in a year.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Rod that looks great. Makes me look forward to using my EM6000.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Peter, and anyone else. I've got a little bit of EM6000. Not enough to finish a guitar with and probably not enough to send any to anyone, but I can spray some scrap with it, and send you a small piece finisined with it. I've got a piece of spurce with a bunch of runout. I can spray it and cut it in pieces if anyone wants.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I'll summarize a few posts I've read to compare the two products. Please correct or clarify as needed.

From what I've read, the 6000 is acrylic.....so I would guess it would still ahve a blueish tint, true? Is the tint any different than USL? Seems this would be one benefit of the spar varnish (KTM-SV) over acrylic (EMT-6000).

I would also guess that the acrylic has better burn in/repair properties. I have read that aggressively rubbing with Acetone prior to respray and the spar varnish will burn in. Thoughts?

Doesn't the spar varnish create a harder finish that the acrylic? Considerably harder or slightly harder.

Both are water base products which is nice.

I've read that the KTM-SV can dissolve the contact layer of shellac and some have recommended a different sealer such as vinyl. But some folks still use shellac so I guess this isn't absolutely necessary.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Peter,

I have considerable experience with waterborne finishes (about a half dozen different ones) including most of the Target/Emtech product line and now KTM-SV. I can honestly say that KTM-SV is without a doubt far better than the rest. It flows beautifully, dries clear and hard and buffs out to a high gloss. Disclaimer: I have a very strong opinion on this. Most important to me is that there is no hint of blue cast on dark woods in sunlight. Any waterborne that contains acrylic including EM6000 will have a blue cast. Also acrylic waterbornes are just not going to get as hard as you would like. Many pros have tried USL (EM6000) and have eventually given up on it. Now Jeff at Target will tell you that EM6000 is reformulated to be better than USL. While it may behave a little better, it is still the same resin that is left on the guitar. These guys at Target and Grafted Coatings are formulators and are not creating new resins. While I am not a coatings chemist, I do have my Ph.D. in organic chemistry so I have a pretty good grasp on what they are doing. The selling point of the 100% acrylic resins has always been its repairability. I feel this has been oversold. I have not had a problem repairing KTM-SV. I just sand the area with 1000 grit, rub it well with a paper towel dampened with lacquer thinner, and then brush on the new finish.

There are currently two waterbornes that I know of that break the mold. One is what was called Hybrivar and is now called EM2000 from Target, and the other is KTM-SV from Grafted. Both of these do not contain acrylic resins and behave much like solvent based coatings. I used Hybrivar for 6 guitars, but it did not flow well and was I plagued by a variety of bizarre problems during application. I got it to work, but it was no fun. Then I heard about KTM-SV from Rolf Gerhart of Phoenix Mandolins, who also has extensive experience with Target products. KTM-SV appears to have a lot in common with Hybrivar (EM2000) but behaves much better. Also, it is a bit harder and clearer (I have films from my soundhole covers to compare). I don't know if EM2000 is better formulated than Hybrivar, since once I found KTM-SV I was done searching. A thing to note is that watebornes typically do not like to be wet sanded, but wet sanding works well with both of these. There is however one caveat with both of these atypical waterbornes. They are like polyester in that they will not tolerate rosewood oils. The guitar has to be well sealed. Rolf uses multiple coats of shellac, but I got burned once doing this. I now seal with two coats of Ilva Isolante sealer (similar to McFadden's rosewood sealer). This stuff is nasty, but I don't have to spray it. I can just mix up 50 mL of sealer and brush it on with a foam brush with good ventilation and a standard respirator. Of course, you should have good ventilation and a respirator with waterborne as well. This stuff works so well and wets that wood so beautifully that everything gets two coats before spraying. The problem with these particular finishes and oils in the wood is not adhesion, but the oils appear to act as anti-catalysts and prevent the finish from hardening fully.

Here is my schedule. Note that it is different from Rolf's, but it works for me.

Day 1
Seal with Isolante, wait 2 hours.
Seal again, wait 2 hours.
Spray 1st set of coats 2 hours apart. Depending on your spray set-up water can be added to thin slightly. Also Transtint dyes can be added to create a more amber finish. Rolf explains this in his article in Guitarmaker magazine. I don't add as much water as Rolf for my setup.

Day 2
Drop fill if needed.
Sand level with 600 grit (finish is somewhat soft at this point so I wouldn't go higher than 600 grit)
Spray 2nd set of coats

Day 4
Level sand with Carborundum 1000 grit. Grizzly sells this stuff and I love it. It is the only aluminum oxide sheet paper that I know of that goes to 1500 grit. The powder will need to be brushed off the paper periodically, but it will not clog. This finish levels so nicely that it is no problem at all leveling with 1000. I like to level sand dry so I can easily see that it is level.

Wet sand (soapy water) with 1500 silicon carbide paper and then again with 2000 silicon carbide paper. I like to wet sand at this point as I feel the paper lasts longer and the scratch pattern is more consistent. Also, it's best to do all of your sanding on this day before the finish gets too hard. Saves time and paper. You will see what appears to be witness lines, but you will see absolutely nothing after buffing out.

Day 7 or 8
Buff with Menzerna medium on a airway cotton bias wheel and then with Menzerna fine on an airway flannel wheel.

Hope this helps.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Well, I just polished up one with EM600 that I brushed on, and I gotta say, I really like this finish. I don't see any of the blueish tint on this guitar, or the one I did over the winter with it. So far the first one is holding up great to daily play. And I love the feel of it. I'll post some pics, maybe tomorrow, as my camera battery is dead tonight.

Haven't used KTM products so I can't really compare, sorry.

_________________
Rob

Rob, I'm getting ready to finish one with a brush and I'd be interested in the finish schedule you used, if you'd care to share. Thanks.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Rob,

I'm glad you like EM6000. If it works for you use it. I do know that you will see a a blue tint when you look at it at an angle in the sunlight, especially on dark woods such as rosewood. You may not notice it, but if you do an A/B comparison with a solvent finished or KTM-SV finished guitar, you will notice it right away. It may not be enough to bother you, but it really bothered me. I know Charles Fox used this stuff briefly and then moved on.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Peter,

There was a session at ASIA where Rolf and Tom Bazzolo talked about the KTM-SV in length. Tom had a guitar there finished with it that looked great. Not quite as glossy as nitro or polyester, but very beautiful. They also passed around a sample of the finish sprayed on a lid and a piece of loose film. I was amazed at how flexible the film was (I think it was at .005) and I scratched at the finish on the lid and did not leave a mark. It was impressive. They did stress that it behaves like a varnish and has all of the inherent problems but they were very excited to have a waterborne finish that they truly liked. If you want to see Rolf's finish schedule to compare it to Randy's it is at www.newenglandluthiers.org.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton,

I was only at ASIA for Thursday, so I wasn't able to go to that one. There isn't much, if anything, as glossy as nitro or poly, but I know that Rolf intentionally doesn't try to get his mandolins that glossy. I believe he stops buffing with medium compound. My guitars come out pretty darn glossy. A big part of that is being very diligent in removing previous scratches and not just rounding them over. At the very finest grits you have to look at the surface of the finish at a glancing angle in good light (halogen or indirect sunlight) to see it. Nitro of course has the advantage of remelting into itself a little bit with the heat of the buffer. I would like to have seen Tom's guitar for comparison.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Burton,

Also, I spoke to Rolf a few months ago and he has changed his schedule a bit since that article was written. He now sands through all the grit levels in one day instead of waiting a day in between each level. He noticed that the finish got too darn hard otherwise.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Randy,

Thanks for that info. It was probably on the handout but I wouldn't have checked between them. Now I will. Did you bring a guitar with you? I would have liked to see it.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I'll get a better explanation tomorrow, but, about the blue tint. The painter from the dealership I work at said the blue tint waterbased finishes sometimes have comes from using a paint gun that isn't designed, or constructed with the right materials to spray waterbased paints.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Burton,

Didn't bring one, I was just passing through. I will be a Montreal and Healdsburg however.

Woody,

It absolutely is not the gun. It's a well established phenomenon of acrylic waterbornes. It can range from very subtle to quite obnoxious. Guitar makers are a picky lot, myself included. I'm just guessing here, but I believe it is a combination of the refractive index of the resin and the inherent haziness in the finish. It's the interplay of these two factors. Better formulations and technique will result in a clearer finish with less blue cast, but there is no such thing as a perfectly clear finish, especially with waterbornes. So it will always have some blue cast. It is not really a blue tint, but more of a blue cast. Even though non-acrylic finishes also aren't perfectly clear, the refractive index is such that it doesn't give the blue cast.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

I finished my last guitar with EM6000. Not a hint of blue tint. Dry sanding only. Looks as good compared to a nito finish on one before that. I will use it again. Used KTM once and asked for a refund on the product because I was not happy at all. Just my 2 cents.

_________________
Wisdom is justified by her children

Mark,

Was that KTM-SV or KTM-9? They are very different finishes.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page