Official Luthiers Forum!

I ran across a waterborne Lacquer a couple of years ago called Piano Lac and have
been contemplating trying it out. They use it to finish High End Grand pianos with
great success. I already do FP and have been going back and forth between the idea
of the KTM-9 from LMI and the Piano Lac. I know Mike Doolin really likes the KTM-9.
Ironically I first ran across the Piano Lac link on Charles Fox's website but when I asked
him about it, he said he'd never heard of it. Have any of you ever tried this product?
If so, or if you know someone that has, what's your opinion of it? If not, I'm willing
to be a guinea pig and take the dive.

Here's a link to the site for the Piano Lac for anyone interested in looking at it. You can only
get it from the manufacturer as far as I can tell but it looks like some pretty good stuff.

http://www.pianolac.com/

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

There are no information on whether or not it burns in, it's important if you want to make multiple coats since if you sand through one coat you will have whiteness lines.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hello Tai Fu,

It's nice to meet you Actually, this link on their site claims 100% burn in.

http://www.pianolac.com/products/clear.html

So far everything I've seen about it looks good. I did run across a blog late last night
where someone said they will not ship unless it is to a business address. My home and
business address are the same so I hope that would qualify if I decide to try it. So far as
I can see and based upon comments on blogs by piano finishers and high end furniture
builders that have used it, they love it. Even on Woodweb it has been endorsed by
one of their moderators. Hmmmm I guess we'll see. The company that makes it has been
around for well over a decade, they have over 50 employees and an R&D department of
about 8 people. They've been selling the PianoLac on the market now for 5 years +

Have a great weekend

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

It looks as though it's not too different (possibly the same) from the KTM-9 or EMtech thing.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

This stuff is better than the second coming, if you believe everything they write about it.

Someone needs to try it quick, before it gets away!
I'm being sarcastic, but it could be great stuff for guitars.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

The only difference between a 'home' and 'business' address is the first line.

Bob Garrish
43 Sesame Street
Happyland, Alaska
12345

Bob Garrish Stump Blowing, Pastries, and Lingerie
43 Sesame Steet
Happyland, Alaska
12345

Make sure to use 'unit' instead of 'apartment' on the 2nd line if it applies (ie: 43 Sesame Street Unit 12 instead of 43 Sesame Street Apartment 12.) Businesses WANT to sell you things, it's how they make money, they just don't want to waste time answering support questions for tire kickers and people who'll only ever buy one quart of finish.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I Googled a bit and found a post from some guy saying he'd spoken to the owner of Pianolac and, while they used to ship to 'DIYers', they only ship to commercial addresses now due to 'liability issues'. I'm not sure what that's all about, but that's the deal. Regardless, the above info can turn anyplace into a 'commericial address'

There was also mention that it was an acrylic lacquer, if that means anything to any finish guys on here.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Target waterborne is also acrylic lac. Spidey senses are all tingly and all, but for some reason, I trust target a heck of a lot more than the pie-anna guys.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

It sounds a lot like KTM-9 to me... at least LMI will sell to anyone, but if you really must buy the piano lac thing then just add a "Custom Guitars" to the end of your name or something... unless they require a copy of tax exemption form or whatever. But then being in another country it's not too hard to fake that... hell it's not too hard to create an empty business for that matter. I can bet it will be a significant markup compared to even KTM-9.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

IIRC, Mario looked into the product, and abandoned his attempts at buying some in disgust, when the company refused pointblank to tell him *what was in it*. The claimed it was propriatary info, and wouldn't discuss it at all.

I suspect it's bull dust, disolved in snake oil...

WOW! No wonder I was tossin' and turnin' last night you guys were busy!
Considering, the potential hassles of getting the "pie-annie" lac even though
I do have an official business, I suppose I'm just going to try the EM6000 and the
KTM-9. They seem to be a bit more cost efficient too. I have a spray room that is
just begging me to use it again and though I love the look of FP, for my purpose
it's just too labor intensive and and time consuming. I appreciate all y'all willing to
pitch in and get this newbie participant movin' in the forum.

Oh, and get some sleep, Monday's rollin' in like a freight train

I'll be back

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

EDIT: Looks like we posted at the same time.


Any finish worth looking into will have available MSDS specs to tell you exactly what is in it.

There is no where on the site that gives any details. I believe it is law for a finishing manufacturing company to disclose what the make up of their product is. This has to be public information. Besides this, they don't even list a price on their website

Forget this stuff. Go with the Target Coating (Oxford USL or EMTech6000) or Grafton Coating (KTM-9) products. They've been used by many guitar makers with good success.

I'm pretty sure that Mike Doolin has moved away fromt he KTM-9 though. Yes, he use to use it, but it still seemed to have the slight blue tint most waterborne products are known for. The EMTech6000 so far does not show the dreaded 'blue tint' though. This is based on my own limited experience with it, and I know a couple other's who've used it more than me and also so no blue tint to it.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Howdy Rod,

Thanks much for the input. The more everybody chimes in and after looking at the EM6000 thread,
I'm heading strongly toward it. In fact, that's what I'm going to use next. It looks like it has all the
attributes I desire in a waterborne finish. I wasn't aware that Doolin had ventured away from the KTM-9
but given the availability and apparent quality of the EM6000, I can see why.

I always had a problem with the final look of waterborne finishes when I was building custom furniture specifically because
of the blue hue, and it just plain looked like a beautiful wood product dipped in plastic. My customers all liked it
because of the "enviro-friendly" finish but it always made my lip quiver and curl up to one side when I looked at it.
I tried to keep my lip under control however while admiring the piece along with the customer

Target EM6000....... Here I come!!!!!

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Hmmm. I remember when Doolin and Greven switched to KTM-9 from whatever they used before that. They said it was indistinguishable from nitro lacquer, all problems solved. I pointed out that Doolin had said that about what he was using before, and he replied, "Yes, but this time we really mean it." So it always goes with water-base. Every few years, all the problems are solved yet again.

Mike Doolin is a great guy and very generous with his expertise. I feel I have to add this, since someone usually comes along and misconstrues a comment such as the above.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

The safety people (OSHA?) require you to have a MSDS for every chemical in your shop. I'm not sure a 1 man backyard shop(like mine) has to comply, but a shop with employees or public access has to. I have no knowledge of piano-lac, but it sounds to me like they're repackaging or re labeling someone elses product.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Thanks for joining in the subject Howard.

Every since I ran across your work back in '06' the innovations you've incorporated have put
you on my list of the luthiers who greatly inspire me to grow and become the best luthier I can be.
The list is too numerous to name them all but Doolin and Grevin are on there as well, along with
Ryan, Laskin, Somogyi, Fox, Mcknight, etc. etc. etc. and others of whom frequent this forum.

Back to the subject, 20 years ago I was a purchasing agent for a company that was leading the
industry in R&D for creating a coating that was waterborne and would adhere permanently to vinyl
sign products. Though they were making leaps and bounds in their research and testing, it was just
never quite there. In 30 years of woodworking experience, (10 professionally) I have yet to try a
waterborne that I'm totally satisfied with, though I will continue on an unending quest to do so.
Granted you can work them to where they exhibit a beautiful glossy shine, but then so does Plexi-Glass
and no mater how it shines, it still looks like plastic

If the industry isn't there yet, it's much closer than it was 20 or even 5 years ago for that matter

Woody may have a point too about the subject in question being a bulk purchaser/repackager (is that a word?)
But I'm in no position to rightfully judge that.

Ahhhhh, the quest continues

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I agree I've never found any waterbased products that works. Just about all of them that I have seen dries soft and has poor water resistance. If I put a wet cup on top of a table finished with waterbased clear coats then the spot will have white areas where the water touched it, solvent based paint never have that problem. I still stick with lacquer because it's cheap and always burns in and looks really good when buffed. Poly might be better but it doesn't burn in and you need a lot of safety gears and a spray booth to use it.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Not to burst any bubbles... but being in the same town (Portland) as two aforementioned builders; one has abandoned waterborne for polyester on account of durability and the other uses target over epoxy filler.
The gripe I've got with the waterborne is the bluish haze that occurs with the film thickness necessary for a gloss/ buffed finish. I've heard that the newest formula from Target has addressed this issue, but I do this for a living and once bitten...
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

No bubbles bursted here Chas.

I too do this for a living (furniture for 10 years & slowly incorporating lutherie), with a
total of 30 years woodworking. I've been on a search for an acceptable waterborne
finish now for over a decade. Thus the purpose of this thread In that time I've not
seen any I personally approve of, but I'm always willing to try a newer formulation that
might actually work because I refuse to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak
Over the past 5 years especially, I've seen vast improvements in waterborne but am still yet
to find something that meets my approval for not only burn in and ease of repair, but that
doesn't look like wood encased in a piece of plastic. Until I find the "holy grail" of waterbornes, I
am compelled to maintain this adventure all the while continuing with FP and Nitro unto that day.
If it never happens, there's still the tried and true traditional methods.

I appreciate your input because that is what this thread was started for. BTW nice work on the
projects in your website

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Doolin is not using KTM-9 anymore (in any meaningful way, if I am wrong, please correct me). He actually invested in some paint booth technology. If you email him, he may explain why. I have messages, but I do not feel like I can freely pass them along (or should). I do not know if he has tried EmTech 6000.

Mike

Bill,

Have you tried the EmTech 6000 product yet? With all of your experience, I would very interested on your experience with it.

Tai-Fu, are you not using a paint booth with Nitro?

Mike

Well several years ago I tried to get an MSDS on piano lac no luck. So I emailed them again and asked to buy a quart for testing. I never received a reply so I called and introduced my self as a small shop luthier interested in their product. I was then ruddily informed that they don't deal with part time builders working out of their house and they don't offer small quantities samples. They had no Idea who I was where I build or how much I build. I decided say no thanks to piano lac

Now on target and KTM9:

I have used both. No they are not as hard as nitro but I have some 40 guitars out in the market place that are KTM9 and I can tell you that unless you decide to take a hot shower with your guitar or allow water to just set for a long period on your guitar KTM9 or target USL will not be damaged by the occasional water splash if cleaned up in a reasonable amount of time.

Waterborne acrylic lacquer is waterborne acrylic lacquer. If you want it to be more than what it is you will be disappointed but the same is true of nitro vs. cat polyester. Each finish has specific attributes and short comings I can state with a reasonable degree of experience that KTM 9, USL and a few other waterborne provide a good alternative to volatile solvent finishes. To this day I still offer KTM 9 as an option on my instruments.

Howdy Mike,

No, I've not tried the Target EM6000 yet because I only learned of it recently in this forum

That said however, I have every intention of giving it a try. I will post a review on it once
I have, of my personal thoughts. I will first test it on thin scrap wood rather than a precious guitar until
I'm certain it meets my approval. This may take a couple of months or so because I plan to put it
through some various tests to determine it's durability, and it's appearance over time in miscelaneous
circumstances. ex. Indirect and direct sunlight, high and low temps, etc. Once all the testing is completed,
my post will be photo documented

I'd be interested in knowing if Mike Doolin is still using some kind of waterborne and if so, what?

I have an explosion proof (so to speak) well exhausted finishing room so until proven otherwise, Nitro Cellulose Lacquer!
And FP of course

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

From what Mike replied to me 2 years ago now, he is not using KTM9 personally any more but is still allowing LMI and Grafton Coatings to continue to use his endorsement of KTM9. Of available waterborne acrylic lacquers he finds KTM 9 to be the best he has used but he has since moved on to using cat polyester exclusively. Now this is 2 years ago that I emailed him but I assume since LMI still posts his endorsement that this is still true.

Michael,

Thanks for the input, I was hoping that you would join in

If you have 40 satisfied customers, that's good enough for me. I'll try the Target
product on a guitar I'm building for my Lovely Wife. Since a guitar is not a piece
of furniture, I suppose the average person is not going to sit a cup of coffee or
a soft drink on it, so there's no worry there. I think my biggest concern of all is
the clarity of the finish. If it's truly a clear finish, that would be acceptable to me because
I know waterbornes will never match up to the toughness of Nitro and Cat Poly. Then
again, I know they're tougher than FP, but there's still for me the burn in factor regarding
repairs that is a concern. Have you had to repair any of your KTM-9 finishes? If so,
how did that work out for you?

All that aside, how's the weather in the West Texas homeland these days?

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!