Official Luthiers Forum!

Has anyone tried a stainless- steel bridge plate? Seems like it would be able to be thinner than a wood one and mabey allow the top to move more air. What are your thoughts on useing one?

I exclusively use cast iron cut from discarded woodstoves.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Yeah I agree - it seems like it would be kind of heavy no? Also what are ya going to glue it on with, perhaps epoxy which is heavy and has high dampening right at ground zero of where the string's energy is transmitted to the top.

It's probably not a good idea Mark my friend.

I use rivets to fasten mine to the soundboard, they're hidden by the bridge. The only caveat is drilling and reaming for the bridge pins, it takes a while…
The weight doesn't bother me, it actually balances the guitar nicely on the leg, it is no longer neck heavy.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Doesn't gibson have a patent on that?

If you're looking for thin/light/stiff then just go straight to carbon fiber. There's no reason to use stainless steel in any load-bearing structure where weight matters.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

wouldn't titanium give a brighter sound though?

Seriously though... if people go to the extent of using brass pins for a different sound why not expoxy a metal bridge plate? Never have to worry about string damage and i would imagine there'd be some type of metal that might rival a wood plate for weight. I know it's not depleted unranium...

Dang, now i'll have to go look that up at some point...

Bwahahahahaha!

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

CF gets almost all it's strength in tension. In compression the strength is almost all the epoxy matrix.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Which is why I just cut to the chase and cast my bridge plates from epoxy (with iron dust from the bench grinders as a thickener).

Really though, it sounds to me like a solution in search of a problem. As a potential "tonal enhancement", I don't see much likeliness of positive change (though that of course is always subjective).

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I've heard of Brass pins being used also.I've even read ,i think here some have used brass to back up the plate for better wear.That's why i asked about the stainless steel as it would wear better than wood. Mabey even use a stainless insert where the strings go through the plate.Brass is good for tone, but i don't know about stainless as i don't like the bright tone on stainless fretted guitars i've played in the past.I just thought mabey some has tried it and could give me some insight on the useing it.I have even thought of making a bridge saddle out of it as well.

Mark, mom always said "If the other boys didn't like you, they wouldn't be making fun".

A metal bridge plate would be ideal for wear at the string ends, but there is also a down side. Hand builders go to a lot of trouble to make things as resonant as possible, and a metal plate right there would probably be a "tone sink".
We hallow the tone of wood, we dispise the cold ring of metal.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Mark, brass bridge pins kill tone, unless you want your guitar to sound more like an electric guitar. The extra mass causes a loss of attack and articulation of the note. Yes, it gains in sustain, but the initial loudness of note is lower which leads to the guitar sounding muted. It's not like there are materials that are just good for tone, wherever you put them.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I was referring to a layup, which would be resisting any bending forces with tensile strength rather than compressive, but there's no real other way to use CF in this application that makes sense. I'm not sure if I was giving the reader too much credit or if you're giving them too little.

You are correct in that there are some places where compressive strength is necessary (or shear strength, at least) such as in fasteners, etc, but there's not really anything wood is used for where CF wouldn't be a better replacement (weight VS strength wise) than steel that I can think of.



Wouldn't that be nice, though? It'd sure simplify my stock...

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Doesn't Rick Turner use a piece of arborite or laminate of some sort on the top of his bridge plates to reduce/eliminate wear?

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

You could easily add a little "Backer plate" made of 0.010" thick steel shim stock... Just epoxy it to the top of an existing bridge plate. A 1" x 3" x 0.010" shim would only weight a couple grams... so probably not a big weight problem.

I think drilling the holes would be the largest PITA.... as Stainless is pretty gummy... it leaves some nice burrs.

Good luck

John

My biggest concern would actually be a problem with tone useing the stainless as i stated before that i didn't even like it when used as frets.I don't like the fact of useing steel bolts to attach a neck either or putting those massive steel trussrods in the neck.(which Martin gets away with).I'm a flute builder and feel metal isn't good for them too.Wood just seems to have a better warm tone when kept all wood, at least to me.

Mark, I like your freethinking style. I wouldn’t doubt that ideas like yours might have originally seeded the beginning of these instruments.

Keep them coming!

_________________
Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I put a Mitchell Plate-mate in my HD-28 when I got it new to help avoid tearing out the string holes. It is a thin pre drilled and slotted brass plate that is stuck to the bottom of the bridge plate with double stick tape(completely removable with your thumb nail). It seemed to brighten the sound and increase the sustain while not hurting the volume. I did lose a little low end though. I need to change string so I think I will take it out this time and check for a sound change. Maybe it will sound better without it.

Now i'm wondering who your supplier is for wooden strings... i may want to try those too!

I still see this as a solution looking for a problem.... And no offense intended to my friend Mark - it's a great question and has us all thinking.

A properly made and installed bridge plate i.e. good wood selection, proper thickness, radiused to match the top AND understanding the advantages of slotting the bridge and plate and not using slotted pins and the plate should out live many of us.

Just using non-slotted pins and slotting the bridge and plate properly will go a very long way to a healthier and happier bridge plate I say...

Hi Hesh,
I took the Mitchell Plate-mate Out of my HD-28 last night and I believe it sounds fuller.
It sounds like would you recommend having the bridge plate slotted and use unslotted pins. And if so,what material would you suggest for the bridge pins.

Jack

Oh no Jack my friend I made no recommendations regarding your D-28 what-so-ever.

As for slotting the bridge and plate and using unslotted pins that is what I do on the guitars I build and not a recommendation for a retrofit on an existing guitar.

On new guitars that are built for unslotted pins the benefit of slotting the bridge and plate is that the string ball will not be pressed against the edge of the pin hole as it can be with slotted pins. When the string ball is resting on the edge of the holes in the bridge plate premature wear happens and shortens the life of the plate AND can lead to the need to have the plate replaced.

As for pin material there is lots about this if you search the archives and some of the threads that are more recent and have not yet made it into the archives. My own current belief on the impact of pin material on tone has me thinking that the differences that some may believe that they hear, me included, are most likely due to the changes in mass on the bridge area that various pins of various materials create. Heavier pins in a guitar that would benefit from more mass in the bridge area may offer a perceivable improvement and likewise lighter pins where the bridge is too heavy may do the same. The trick is knowing what the guitar will benefit from, more or less mass in the bridge area and of course the possibility exists that the guitar is fine as it is too.

The best way to find out I always say is to sit down with your ax and favorite beverage and several sets of pins made from different materials and change them out and play the guitar for a while with each choice. Tone is very subjective, an understatement..... and your mileage may vary from what others perceive and appreciate.

I have a dread that I put bone pins on and it sounded very bright to me afterwards. About a year later I got around to changing out the pins to rosewood and the extra brightness that I did not like went away with the bone pins. This is not to say that bone makes a bad pin but in this case bone might just have been too heavy for this guitar.

Sorry for the high-jack Mark.

That's fine Hesh. It was good to hear about unslotted pins and ther'e effect on wear and tone.It was valuable information and that's how we all learn.Thanks for posting about it.