Official Luthiers Forum!

Warning - This may be a stupid question.

When a store like Allied Luthierie posts various builders' guitars on their site to show off examples of different back/side woods, does that imply that that exact back/side set came from Allied Lutherie (or whatever store it may be)?

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/backsnsides.htm

So, they have a picture of a Breedlove guitar on that page labeled "Macassar Ebony; Guitar by Breedlove Guitars". Did Breedlove buy that set of Macassar Ebony from Allied and build that guitar, or did Allied just find a picture of a good example of Macassar Ebony and ask permission from Breedlove to use that picture, while Breedlove just got that set from who knows where?

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Mark

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Mark Burton

Hook 'em Horns

This is totally speculation, but I suspect that the wood pictured came from the vendor showing the picture.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Todd, the owner, is a super stand up guy...and he also sells and sources a LOT of wood...so I don't think they'd have too much trouble finding pictures of their wood used in great guitars. If you're picking Allied as an example, rather than a vendor you're truly curious about, then I'd say that only a certain top subset of vendors shoot as straight as Allied and so you might be cautious.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I can vouch for The Zootman...he posts pics of guitars featuring his wood.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'll second Bobs comments about Allied.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Mark, this isn't meant as a rebuke of you or your question at all, just my opinion. I don't care whether the photos they post are from wood they sold or not, and I don't consider it the slightest bit dishonest if they post photos of guitars made from wood they didn't sell. In all likelihood, the wood any given vendor currently has in stock (I'm speaking primarily of highly figured woods) looks quite different from what they may have sold at some time in the past, anyway. All I care about, if I'm checking out a wood I'm not familiar with, is getting some idea of what that kind of wood looks like under finish, and the photos serve that purpose, no matter who sold that particular wood to that particular guitar maker. Another thing is, very often the really highly figured woods that turn up for sale by different vendors all came from the same source - often even from the same tree!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks for the responses.

Part of my question was just from curiosity, wondering if builders who do this for a living are buying from the same sites that I visit, or if they are part of some super secret club where they buy wood from unknown sources, not available to mere mortals, such as myself.

The other reason for the question is that if the norm is for vendors to only post pictures of guitars built out of their wood, then it gives a bit of assurance to buying site unseen. Although I agree with you, Todd. I don't consider it dishonest if the pictures aren't from wood they provided. I was just wondering if this was a well known fact one way or the other.

So, I gather from the responses, that my best bet is to stick to buying from this site's sponsors and then I won't need to worry about the honesty of the company posting pictures.

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Mark Burton

Hook 'em Horns

As a matter of fact I am am part of a super secret club ... ahhh ...oops, I should NOT have said that .

Good story - I have a good friend and student who happens to work at a hardwood shop ... a few years back, two large bins full of brw log chunks came thru .. they never saw the front room of the place. We picked out the chunks we wanted, and cut them into back and sides, the offcuts became bridges and headplates. We were however dumb enough not to take them all - we left the smaller pieces, or ones with checks and rotten sections . The rest ended up being bought by a fellow who makes high end hand planes .. its now handles and in-fill. Could have been a lot of FBs and bridges, headplates ....

bottom line .. what you see on the web with places like Allied and such is only a sampliing of whats out there.. so much is at places that never post pix on the web, you have to get out there to find it. Whenever you travel around, find the local h/w shops, and take a look at what they have. You may have to buy whole boards to get stuff, but its way cheaper that way anyhow.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

+1 on what Tony said. I think the 'secret' is having a good network of places you get wood from. To get the best wood you need to:

1- Know a lot of wood dealers, and have them like you
2- Be willing to pay for it. Some customers want the best of the best, and happily pay for it, and they'll hear about that stuff before it hits the floor. I'd be lying if I said my 'no hassle' customers didn't get preferential treatment; they save me a lot of money in customer service time!
3- Dig around in stacks of wood a lot...and know which stacks not many people are digging in! Of all the woods I've acquired, the nicest electric top cost me $8 in an offcuts bin, and I wish I hadn't used it on an 'early' guitar!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

The latter.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

My dealings with LMI have shown Todd and everyone else there to be as honest and ethical as they come. You could always email them and ask.

Bob at RC Tonewoods did contact me before using my pics.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! (Where's that fist-waving emoticon?)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Speaking of pics...do most folks prefer to see a pic of the acutal set they are buying or do you just call up a trusted vendor and say "send me a set of X or a set of Y?"

Great question Robbie

My feelings are I like to see, touch, and smell!! However I don't get too much of that out hear in West Texas. We have no lumber yard or Hardwood dealer with in 200 mile worth a flip. So the only time I get to put my hand on raw stock is when I travel to Dallas, Houston or El Paso. Because of this I do most of my back and side shopping on line. This means I need to deal with suppliers that I have come to know and trust. I never by sets from Stewmac because their niche is really commercial grade sets. I some times buy sets from LMI and really limit that. They are always willing to go pick out a set that meats my verbal description but for some reason they refuse to take photos to allow me to proof from. Now I buy most my back and side sets from RC Tonewoods with absolute confidence in what I am getting and the added benefit of photos. The same is true with Steve at Colonial Tonewoods. Allied is good about getting me photos if I ask and some of our other sponsors are as well.

The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words and this is true with tonewood in terms of figure and appearance. But it can not show you the physical characteristics of the wood. That is why dealing with someone you know and trust is so important if you are unable to critique the timber your self.

I like RC Tonewoods, Volcano Guitar Works and Curly Koa because you can see pics of the sets you want to buy. Others, its a crap shoot. I bought sight unseen from a major luthier supply with varying success. Luckily they were very fair at replacing any sets that I thought to be inferior, which might have been avoided if I could have seen the pics.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

As far as the Allied question goes.... I get the feeling that those guitars were built using Allied product. But the subject line.."Buying Wood Online" gave me a whole different impression before I read the post. Because generally it's an interesting question about "who buys their wood online"? "Are you confident about what you'll receive", etc.... Those are all valid questions I think.

For instance.... I envy you guys that can go to a vendor and pick out your stuff. Not necessarily because I think you're getting better stuff (or maybe you are ), but mainly because it's probably a great learning experience or just an "experience" in general, am I right? Most of my "instructional books" almost assume that the reader can go and flex all the wood they want all day. Unfortunately I'm not one of em. I'm in NYC. Bob Benedetto told me there used to be a place in the Bronx called Constantine's or something, can't remember. It's not there anymore. Sorry to elaborate a little on this topic, but are there any guys in the 5 boroughs that know of any "hands on" places? Or anyone else that feels the same? Thanks!
-John

Hi Everyone,
The photo issue is one that we here at LMI have dealt with repeatedly over the years. Again and again we have concluded that our over-all customer service would suffer if we devoted the time, labor and costs necessary to post photos of all the individual wood products we carry or to handle the hundreds of photo requests we would receive weekly if we "opened the flood gates".

It simply is not feasible. People would not get their orders as quickly as they need -and no one likes a price increase. We are simply opperating on a different scale than many other wood vendors. I am sure that other guys do very well by selling wood on a set by set basis.

Of course we recognize the need for our customers to know what they are getting, and so our solution is this:

1) Tell us what you want and what you expect in your order. Be specific. We can usually find what you want based on a verbal description and you are welcome to send us a picture of something you are interested in. Our sales people are well trained in working with our customers in this way (and we enjoy doing it!).
2) If, after we have received your description, we are still not 100% sure you will be happy with what we have in stock, we can photograph a couple sets for you to look at.
3) A final option is to order more than you need, look over the wood in your shop and return the "rejects" for a full refund. We do our best to make returns easy. The only negative here is the return shipping cost, but it is worth it to many to pay the little extra in order to get their hands (and ears!) on the wood.
4) We do not have an over-the-counter store but you can visit us to check out specific woods if you make an appointment well in advance.

To answer the question about photos on the website, we do on occasion use a photo of something that we did not sell ourselves. We do this with new woods especially where there may not be a lot of guitar photos to choose from.

Our goal, in each case, is two-fold: to show wood that is representive of our current stock and to have a photo which has adequate resolution etc and helps improve the overall look of our catalog or website. In other words, our art people have a say in what's chosen.

Often we reject photos that show the best of what we have in stock, because we only have a little of "the best" to sell. This is another good reason to talk / email with our sales people about what you want. For example, we stock literally thousands of nice back and side sets at any one time, so there are always suprising gems out in the warehouse amongst the stacks.

[quote="Chris -LMI"]1) Tell us what you want and what you expect in your order. Be specific. We can usually find what you want based on a verbal description and you are welcome to send us a picture of something you are interested in. Our sales people are well trained in working with our customers in this way (and we enjoy doing it!).
2) If, after we have received your description, we are still not 100% sure you will be happy with what we have in stock, we can photograph a couple sets for you to look at.
3) A final option is to order more than you need, look over the wood in your shop and return the "rejects" for a full refund. We do our best to make returns easy. The only negative here is the return shipping cost, but it is worth it to many to pay the little extra in order to get their hands (and ears!) on the wood.
4) We do not have an over-the-counter store but you can visit us to check out specific woods if you make an appointment well in advance.

To answer the question about photos on the website, we do on occasion use a photo of something that we did not sell ourselves. We do this with new woods especially where there may not be a lot of guitar photos to choose from.

[quote]

Hey Chris

First I want to say that nothing I have ever bought through your compamy, have I had ever had any problems with. In fact every piece I have bought has met my expectations. That said I have asked repeatedly for photos to choose from. I have been told many times, that you would not take photos of a few (2-3 sets) that meet my verbal description for me to choose from. You have offered to take photos of “the set” you think fits the bill. But never would give me a couple or three sets to pick from. That is my only complaint.

I am a small shop luthier out in the high desert in West Texas I build only 5-10 commissioned guitars a year. I am worlds away from the nearest hardwood dealer more less tonewood dealer. Almost all my clients desire to be able to see set prior to placing an order. Once again this is the only issue I have ever had. and did not mean in anyway to knock your company. However I would love to see you offer the ability to choose from a few set that match a given description. I know this ability is an issue for me, so I assume it is for others.

Best regards
Michael Payne

I have to add my name to the list that only buys sets I can see. I usually don't have a need for a specific set and buy things I run across that I really like. Of the 40 or so B+S sets I have in the pile, they were all bought based off a picture. Allied is half way in between. They have "weekly specials" of some sets in their offering, but have a whole lot more that are not shown. In fact most of the vendors that post individual sets have a lot more to offer than what’s online. Since day one with WAS, I wished LMI would do this and I know I would have (and would) buy B+S sets from LMI if they did. I’ve always had great service from them and would love to give them more of my business. I’ve got a bunch of tools and other components from them with great satisfaction. I don’t want this to come off as a knock on them. I understand the business reasons for their approach. I wouldn’t normally address a criticism of a specific vendor in this forum, but since Chris chimed in here I though I’d share my opinion to give a bit of “voice of the customer”. Free market research…

I've ordered from all the big suppliers & some of the small ones!
ANYTIME - I've had a problem with what they sent -and told them that -thay made sure I was satisfied !
Sending another set -etc....or whatever !
All the OLF sponcers are great to deal with !!
And yes -many sites show you the actual set you'll get!!

Have no fear with dealing with these suppliers !

mike

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Mike Collins

I have purchased several sets via web/mail. I purchased only sets I could see. The most recent from RC Tonewoods. I've very happy with all my purchases. Seeing pictures on-line and getting that set is my preferred way. I don't think I'd buy a set sight unseen as what I'd prefer in look might be very different from what the vendor sees as the "best." So even when a vendor is doing their very best for you, it might not match what you'd like. Now, after a while, I'm sure you'd build up a rapport and be able to get exactly what you'd want.

I also imagine if one buys enough, then one would also get advance offerings of what one most frequently purchased. Thus the secret source.

I've purchased a good deal of stuff online - most of the pre-cut sets, I'll wager. The higher end stuff that's got far more variable grain, I've selected based on photographs (madagascan rosewood, macassar ebony, etc.), but I'm perfectly happy trusting reputable vendors when it comes to selecting stuff like indian rosewood and mahogany. As long as I can specify colour (darker, ligher), grain (quartered), and grade I've been happy with stuff.

Of course, a site like BobC's is like a candy store for a woodaholic. I am, sadly, forbidden from buying more wood until I've built a few more guitars (since I have enough to last me 3-5 decades, depending on how much faster I get).

I actually did laugh out loud when I read this. I can see that happening to me. I do agree, Bob's site is a candy store for beautiful wood. I did buy a fairly plain set from him too just to have some of that as well. Right now, at the pace I make them, I've already got at least two year's worth of wood.

I'm right there with you buddy. Maybe not decades, but a close to one at a hobby pace.

I going to sound crazy here, but I actually don't like the pictures. The best sets I've received over the years have been from vendors like LMI and Allied (others too!) that know how to grade the wood. I have had nothing but good experiences buying the appropriate grade with some simple verbiage describing further what I want to go along with it. I prefer someone pick wood who is touching it to help me get the set I want vs. me buying off a picture. Pictures don't tell me anything about the weight, stiffness, ect.. Trying to pick a top out off of a picture is nuts IMO. So I applaud LMI and Allied for knowing their woods and how to grade it and how to take care of customers who don't get exactly what they were looking for.

With pictures I also usually assume that the vendor only has wood that's shown on the website, so I don't usually bother trying to purchase there. I'm sure this is a fallacy though, as it's hard to keep the website always current, I know I'm abysmal at keeping my site current.

I need to apologize in advance here as it seems like I'm slamming the other vendors, I'm not really, pictures just don't work so well for me. I have seen some nice looking wood on some of the sites (Colonial, RC Tonewoods, Volcano,etc..) and have gotten some nice wood from them also. I guess maybe my biggest hangup is that assuming they don't have any wood that's not shown on their website and I also assume that they won't work with me as they want me to pick from a picture.

Just my distorted view.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com