***** Guitar Project Jigs, Tools & Techniques Online Resources Archives OLF Video Page Library of plans MP3 Library Inlay Class
Offical Luthiers Forum





And our community proudly sponsored by:

RC Tonewoods | Stewart MacDonald | LuthiersForum
TasmanianTonewoods | OLF | OLF MERCH
Luthier Suppliers | Pacific Coast Woods | ELEVATE
OLF X | Tasmanian Acoustic Tonewood | Luthiers Forum Store!
Luthiers Forum | OLF Facebook | AVAIL SPACE
OLF | Alaska Specialty Woods | A.Hix Tonewood
Duke of Pearl | Birkonium CNC | Space




Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Jul 19, 2025 4:06 pm


Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
windsurfer
 Post subject: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:13 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:15 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
First name: John "jd"
City: Santa Barbara
State: Ca
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Working on guitars #4 (walnut/paduk solid body electric) and #5 (Bocote 000).

My previous builds used the Martin-style truss rod which I securely epoxied in place and covered with an epoxied in shim. For the new builds, I am switching to a Allied truss rods that I learned about on this furum. I was planning to epoxy the rod in and cover with a epoxied in shim. I was suprised to see a comment in the LMI catalog that said that most Luthiers do not glue the rod in place.

What is the normal method for mounting this style of rod ?

Glue it in ? (if so, how to protect threads from the glue ?)
Leave in floating and cover with a glued-in shim ?
Leave the rod and the shim floating and just glue the fingerboard ?

thanks,

-jd
Top
 Profile  
 
Michael Dale Payne
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:50 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
windsurfer wrote:
Working on guitars #4 (walnut/paduk solid body electric) and #5 (Bocote 000).

My previous builds used the Martin-style truss rod which I securely epoxied in place and covered with an epoxied in shim. For the new builds, I am switching to a Allied truss rods that I learned about on this furum. I was planning to epoxy the rod in and cover with a epoxied in shim. I was suprised to see a comment in the LMI catalog that said that most Luthiers do not glue the rod in place.

What is the normal method for mounting this style of rod ?

Glue it in ? (if so, how to protect threads from the glue ?)
Leave in floating and cover with a glued-in shim ?
Leave the rod and the shim floating and just glue the fingerboard ?

thanks,

-jd


"I securely epoxied in place" (Please tell me it ain't true Joe, say it ain't true!!) "and covered with an epoxied in shim"


Question what good does it do to epoxy in a truss rod? I understand maybe using a caulking to avoid buzzing but the freedom of the rod to warp its shape is the entire point behind and adjustable rod. Gluing the rod in with epoxy just inhibited the rods movement. Now if the rod is adjusted enough to break the epoxy bond you have broken epoxy flakes that can buzz against the rod. Same on the top shim! The only real point to a top shim is to bring the rod level and the neck/fretboard level to equal. No real point to epoxy in or even glue in for that mater if the rod and shim is properly fitted and loaded.
Top
 Profile  
 
windsurfer
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:13 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:15 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
First name: John "jd"
City: Santa Barbara
State: Ca
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
My purpose for epoxying the C-shaped section of the martin rod in place was to couple it to the neck wood. I wanted to evenly distribute the forces generated by the bending rod. If I leave the rod floating, it seems that it would result in point loads in the middle and at both ends.

-jd
Top
 Profile  
 
Brad T
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:15 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:09 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Washington, GA
Allied style or LMI, I place a dab of caulking under the ends, and in the middle to prevent rattle. No shim. That's all! No problems yet.

_________________
Brad Tucker
Top
 Profile  
 
Barry Daniels
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:35 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3272
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
The Martin style truss rod is housed in a U-shaped aluminum extrusion and most installation instructions say to glue the sides of the extrusion to the neck with epoxy. The interior rod is free-floating and protected from the glue by the U-shaped extrusion and a paper covering on the open side of the U.

The Allied style rod should definitely NOT be glued into place.
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:07 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I think the new allied rod fits in a 1/4" wide 3/8" deep channel which is alot smaller than the channel for the gotoh rod.That's a big difference! :)
Top
 Profile  
 
Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:27 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
Do a search on the forum for Mark Blanchard. He designed the Allied rod and has good tips for installation.
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.
Top
 Profile  
 
Martin Turner
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:53 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
The instructions for the Allied rods actually instruct one to to roughen up top of the rod and epoxy filler strip to same.
Top
 Profile  
 
Blanchard
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:05 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 332
Location: United States
For the Allied rod, make the slot .400 inches deep. Put the rod in dry and epoxy a filler strip to the back of the rod and the sides of the slot. Clamp it down lightly to remove space but not so tightly that is makes the rod hard to turn. After the glue is dry, plane the filler off so that it is flush with the neck shaft.

Mark
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:51 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Blanchard wrote:
For the Allied rod, make the slot .400 inches deep. Put the rod in dry and epoxy a filler strip to the back of the rod and the sides of the slot. Clamp it down lightly to remove space but not so tightly that is makes the rod hard to turn. After the glue is dry, plane the filler off so that it is flush with the neck shaft.

Mark

Why is a filler strip required with this rod?It looks like the adjuster will clear the top plate without one.Why take out more wood than you have to from the neck?
Top
 Profile  
 
Brad T
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:53 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:09 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Washington, GA
I'm with Mark G on this one. Are we talking about the dual action trussrod that LMI sells (and Allied) with the flat barstock on top, which bears on the fingerboard? I cut my channel just deep enough to allow the flat part of the rod to sit flush with the top plane of the neck. Although, I do install them where the adjustment sits flush with the block when viewed from inside the guitar. The flat part of the rod bears directly on the fingerboard. I've yet to have any problems; of course I don't have any 20 year old guitars out there either.

Now, if I were to use a longer rod, and extend it through the upper transverse, I would consider going deeper in order to allow the access hole in the UTB to be drilled in its center if need be.

just my de-valued .02 cents.

_________________
Brad Tucker
Top
 Profile  
 
Dave Higham
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:03 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:54 am
Posts: 378
Location: Between Bordeaux and the Atlantic. S.W.France
Blanchard wrote:
For the Allied rod, make the slot .400 inches deep. Put the rod in dry and epoxy a filler strip to the back of the rod and the sides of the slot. Clamp it down lightly to remove space but not so tightly that is makes the rod hard to turn. After the glue is dry, plane the filler off so that it is flush with the neck shaft.


I assume that was advice from the guy who designed it. If he says do it that way, I'll do it that way!
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:34 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Brad T wrote:
I'm with Mark G on this one. Are we talking about the dual action trussrod that LMI sells (and Allied) with the flat barstock on top, which bears on the fingerboard? I cut my channel just deep enough to allow the flat part of the rod to sit flush with the top plane of the neck. Although, I do install them where the adjustment sits flush with the block when viewed from inside the guitar. The flat part of the rod bears directly on the fingerboard. I've yet to have any problems; of course I don't have any 20 year old guitars out there either.

Now, if I were to use a longer rod, and extend it through the upper transverse, I would consider going deeper in order to allow the access hole in the UTB to be drilled in its center if need be.

just my de-valued .02 cents.

How close to the nut is the end of the rod when installed your way? I like to keep them 1/2" away. Are yours any closer than that to get it away from the transverse brace for adjustment room?
Top
 Profile  
 
windsurfer
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:48 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:15 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
First name: John "jd"
City: Santa Barbara
State: Ca
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Blanchard wrote:
For the Allied rod, make the slot .400 inches deep. Put the rod in dry and epoxy a filler strip to the back of the rod and the sides of the slot. Clamp it down lightly to remove space but not so tightly that is makes the rod hard to turn. After the glue is dry, plane the filler off so that it is flush with the neck shaft.

Mark


Thank you very much.

I just measured the slots I had already routed at 0.42" so I am pretty close.

-jd
Top
 Profile  
 
Brad T
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:06 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:09 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Washington, GA
Mark Groza wrote:
How close to the nut is the end of the rod when installed your way? I like to keep them 1/2" away. Are yours any closer than that to get it away from the transverse brace for adjustment room?


It probably ends up somewhere in that area, Mark. I like to have it close to the end of the fingerboard on that end, but not too close. The adjustment (allen head) usually comes out about flush with the neck block if viewed from the inside of the box, give or take. I have tried flush, slightly recessed, and slightly protruding (1/16" or so). They make for a little more difficulty in adjusting because you have to reach into the soundhole, but I don't like the support block under the fingerboard extension, so this is how I do it for people who don't like the adjustment at the peghead. I use the LMI dual action trussrod currently, but I like the Allied and may change over sometime.

_________________
Brad Tucker
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:19 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Brad T wrote:
Mark Groza wrote:
How close to the nut is the end of the rod when installed your way? I like to keep them 1/2" away. Are yours any closer than that to get it away from the transverse brace for adjustment room?


It probably ends up somewhere in that area, Mark. I like to have it close to the end of the fingerboard on that end, but not too close. The adjustment (allen head) usually comes out about flush with the neck block if viewed from the inside of the box, give or take. I have tried flush, slightly recessed, and slightly protruding (1/16" or so). They make for a little more difficulty in adjusting because you have to reach into the soundhole, but I don't like the support block under the fingerboard extension, so this is how I do it for people who don't like the adjustment at the peghead, which I personally prefer, because it makes adjustment much easier. I use the LMI dual action trussrod. I don't recall LMI saying anything about using shims, gluing wood to the sides of the slot, etc. I just cut my slot deep and wide enough to accept the rod.

Thanks Brad,Sounds good.I have never glued a rod in yet nor will i ever.That would be the fastest way to cause a rod to fail.It's bad enough that it has to fight string tension.let alone fightint the neck as well eek If you really think about it,metal bends on a truer arch than wood does ,so why would you want the neck to guide the trussrod?The reason i got this rod was so i didn't have to shim or glue. ;) Mark
Top
 Profile  
 
Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:36 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
If you don't shim the LMI or Allied rod better at least use caulk in the channel or be prepared for a phone call from some customer about a rattle.
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:47 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Terence Kennedy wrote:
If you don't shim the LMI or Allied rod better at least use caulk in the channel or be prepared for a phone call from some customer about a rattle.
Terry

There is no reason for a truss rod to rattle unless it's improperly installed or tensioned unless badly made or broken.I wax mine in and have never had a problem. ;)
Top
 Profile  
 
Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:15 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
What does "waxing in" mean Mark? That's a new one for me.
Thanks
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:43 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I use wax instead of cauck.It stays pliable and lubricates the threads on the rod while stopping rust at the same time.It also lets the rod slide better when flexing against the bottom of the fretboard.I encase the whole rod in it. Any play or vibration that can cause rattle is absorbed by the wax.It also makes the channel more solid as though there isn't a channel or rod at all,but allows the rod to do its job without binding.
Top
 Profile  
 
Brad T
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:38 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:09 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Washington, GA
I use caulking....under the ends and in the middle.

_________________
Brad Tucker
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:08 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I'm going with the allied rods as they look to be well made.I like the stainless steel also.I'll still wax them in as that keeps the glue off as well. :)
Top
 Profile  
 
Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:45 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
I like that wax idea a lot. Makes sense. I've always used caulk. What kind of wax do you use Mark?
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.
Top
 Profile  
 
Mark Groza
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:26 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I use a wax that doesn't get hard so it can keep working.Actually the best i have found is what they use for toilet wax rings.It's an anti bacterial wax that stays soft which enables the rod to move unrestricted when adjusted.You get quite a bit of it on those rings,and it's real cheap.I use it for alot of other things as well.I use it to lube neck screws as well.They go in alot easier without the chance of breaking with this wax on them.I use it between the neck and body on strats to get a more positive seal there as well.It sort of fills all the voids for better neck to body contact. ;)
Top
 Profile  
 
Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: truss rod mounting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
Thanks Mark.
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jim Watts and 25 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com