Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=55841		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mark Mc [ Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
I have a 000-15 needing a neck reset. I am confident about being able to reset the new angle, but can you give me some guidance about removing the neck to begin with? I understand that these have a straight mortise and tenon, glued in and also a single bolt which hides under the faceplate stuck onto the neck block. I have scored the finish, removed the bolt and separated the fingerboard extension. The glue is still holding it together firmly, so I have three questions about the next stage:
1. Can you just inject stem through the bolt hole, or should I remove the 15th fret and drill in the manner that would usually be done for a dovetail?
2. Once it is loose do you push it out in the direction of the headstock (since that is the direction the mortise faces) or do you push on the heel and take it upwards, towards the soundboard (as you would for a dovetail)?
3. Once I have reset the angle I am inclined to add a second bolt and turn this into a proper bolt-on neck joint instead of this strange Martin-invented compromise situation. This is how I usually do my guitar builds. Would you see any pitfalls in that idea?
Thanks in advance for your tips and tricks.
Author:  joshnothing [ Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Personally I would use dry heat rather than steam for one of these but steam will work too. I wouldn’t inject it via the bolt hole, as it will escape via that hole too and you don’t want to fill the box with steam, risk loosening braces etc etc. I would actually plug the bolt hole with something tight-fitting to protect the box and steam via the usual two holes in the fretboard - one for steam in, one for steam out.

One argument against adding an additional bolt would be the “leave no footprints” side of restoration ethics. I agree it’s a non-ideal design but unless the heel has already come loose on its own can we really say the joint as designed is not fit for purpose? Glued and with the bottom bolt secured, it’s a fairly strong joint.

The other argument would be future value of the instrument and whether originality will be a factor in setting value - as it currently is in the vintage market.

It seems funny to talk about one of Martin’s current cheaper models in these terms but as we speak there are people spending big dollars on 1960s Fender Mustangs - a budget offering of its era.

I think we need to look forward to a future where flat top guitars made of solid tonewoods, especially the classics like hog and rosewood, will be increasingly rare. Who is to say this 00015 won’t appreciate in value and desirability as the years go by?

I’m not saying don’t add the bolt, just offering another point of view. I recently added a truss rod to a 100-year-old guitar and I feel I had a good reason to do so, so I’m not exactly conservative on these issues.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
I won't be in the shop for two week now we are closed for vacations so no pics but Dave Collins made a threaded plug that fits the bolt hole on these and has a steam probe inserted in the center of the bolt. This way the steam does not escape the bolt hole.

The single bolt is really not intended to do any heavy lifting keeping the neck on although we do see these joints fail and they end up with the bolt being far more important than we would like.

A couple points that I have to make to get out of the way. Martin will cover the resets or repair of these under warranty at no cost to the original owner if the joint failed or there is a visible gap at the heel. You have to go though a Martin authorized repair center to get this coverage. This is being said more for others than anyone here as a public service announcement.

A modification to the neck joint will void any Martin warranty from the point of the modification forward. So if this is an original owner instrument I would not want to modify it and lose a client's warranty.

I agree with Josh which seems to always be the case :) about being concerned about resale value too. Granted the additional bolt would likely end up under the wooden plate that hides all this stuff.

In this case the glue joint had not failed which is what we would want so the joint, like it or not worked it's intended purpose and took this instrument to neck reset time.

If it were me I would refresh the neck angle and put it back together as the maker intended with no mods.

I see these joints fail from time to time while doing set-ups and there is a slight gap at the heel. Removing the plate, cranking the bolt restores the neck angle (for a while...) if there is no budget for a proper reset and/or it's not covered under warranty because it's not the original owner.

Martin has been trying in the last 20 years a number of neck joints such as with the SC series now. Interesting to see how they do after being in the wild for a while.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
All good points.
I like the idea of the plug in the bolt hole which allows a steam needle through. I will think up some variation on that theme if I can. I understand the desire to maintain “originality”, and also to not void warranty, and these considerations might be important to most folks that you know or have as customers. However, to those of us outside the US or Canada there is no warranty anyway, so that ends that issue. This guitar belongs to my son and is considered a utility workhorse, so resale value and originality are not high priorities. Nevertheless, I might just glue and bolt it as original from the factory because that is simpler - and has worked OK for this instrument for nearly 15 years.
Author:  joshnothing [ Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Mark Mc wrote:
However, to those of us outside the US or Canada there is no warranty anyway, so that ends that issue.


What makes you say that? Martin has authorised service centres and authorised dealers in many countries. They certainly do here in Australia, and I know they perform warranty work here.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
And I'll add Martin actually honors their warranty and is VERy customer centric with warranty determinations, I know I do a lot of them and Martin always has their customer's backs, mine too.

Mark I like your thinking that the joint had not failed in 15 years so why change it. I do see some of these failing but far more not failing so I agree with your thinking and would do the same.

Regarding the threaded insert with the steam probe a rubber cork would also work only be less secure in the hole. The idea is to prevent the steam from escaping from the hole it's injected into.

Bit of a burn risk from steam here too incase what you use comes out when you hand is in there so I have to mention that not wanting you or anyone to follow any of this advice and get hurt.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
OK Josh, perhaps I am wrong, but I based this on the following statement on the Martin warranty registration page:
"This Limited Warranty is valid only if the instrument is purchased from an authorized C. F. Martin & Co., Inc. dealer located in the United States (excluding U.S.
Territories) or Canada." https://martinguitar.com/on/demandware. ... rranty.pdf
If you go to the Martin registration page to register your instrument for Limited Warranty the only countries that can be entered in the registration page are USA and Canada. I bought this guitar in the U.S. and shipped it home, and I had read forum posts by Australians with U.S. bought instruments who have been told that the only way they can get warranty repairs is by shipping the instrument to the U.S. (anecdote, maybe inaccurate?). But I admit that I have not actually taken it to an Australian dealer to seek work. Anyway, I guess I am committed now and I will enjoy the work - but I will take your advice on board for the future and certainly advise others accordingly.
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
I’m really not fond of Martin’s mortise and tenon. If the heel is pulling away near the bottom of the heel, it can sometimes be a simple matter of releasing the FB extension and the neck almost falls off in your hand. Other times they can be much more ornery.

This video by Ted Woodford may be useful:
https://youtu.be/QMWAaYnNVg4

Good luck with yours!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Author:  Mark Mc [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Hi Tim. I had not seen that video from Ted Woodford and it is interesting to see him tackling the same situation, and finding it is not a pushover! Very instructive. I had seen some forum descriptions where the glue in these joints fails and the heel loosens - and can be tightened up using the bolt (at least for a while). However, his situation and mine is different inasmuch as we are both trying to get the glue to let go. I will let you know how it goes.
Author:  joshnothing [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Mark Mc wrote:
OK Josh, perhaps I am wrong, but I based this on the following statement on the Martin warranty registration page:
"This Limited Warranty is valid only if the instrument is purchased from an authorized C. F. Martin & Co., Inc. dealer located in the United States (excluding U.S.
Territories) or Canada." https://martinguitar.com/on/demandware. ... rranty.pdf
If you go to the Martin registration page to register your instrument for Limited Warranty the only countries that can be entered in the registration page are USA and Canada. I bought this guitar in the U.S. and shipped it home, and I had read forum posts by Australians with U.S. bought instruments who have been told that the only way they can get warranty repairs is by shipping the instrument to the U.S. (anecdote, maybe inaccurate?). But I admit that I have not actually taken it to an Australian dealer to seek work. Anyway, I guess I am committed now and I will enjoy the work - but I will take your advice on board for the future and certainly advise others accordingly.

As recently as a month ago, a customer of mine brought in his Martin with the binding falling off. I said I was happy to do the repair but he should check with Martin first in case he could have it done under warranty. I spoke to him later and he said Martin said yes, and he had shipped the guitar to the Australian repair shop that Martin had nominated to have the work done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Mark Mc wrote:
OK Josh, perhaps I am wrong, but I based this on the following statement on the Martin warranty registration page:
"This Limited Warranty is valid only if the instrument is purchased from an authorized C. F. Martin & Co., Inc. dealer located in the United States (excluding U.S.
Territories) or Canada." https://martinguitar.com/on/demandware. ... rranty.pdf
If you go to the Martin registration page to register your instrument for Limited Warranty the only countries that can be entered in the registration page are USA and Canada. I bought this guitar in the U.S. and shipped it home, and I had read forum posts by Australians with U.S. bought instruments who have been told that the only way they can get warranty repairs is by shipping the instrument to the U.S. (anecdote, maybe inaccurate?). But I admit that I have not actually taken it to an Australian dealer to seek work. Anyway, I guess I am committed now and I will enjoy the work - but I will take your advice on board for the future and certainly advise others accordingly.


That specific warranty page and language is only valid in North America is my guess but that does not mean that a Martin warranty is not available elsewhere too with, perhaps... different language because of local laws, regulations and even norms.

Hearing from Josh (thanks man) that there is a selected provider for these in Australia is how it's done elsewhere too.

Tim we don't have any problem with these and they are the easiest neck resets we have ever done and can be done in a few hours if that. Didn't look at the video, yet but we steam them off without any unnatural acts. Our neck resets may take longer we insist on a full fret dress afterwards too. Fret planes can change with the trauma of a reset.

So the standard for warranty repair of a Martin that needs a neck reset is a visible gap in the heel. No longer is the need for a reset the justification for coverage there has to be evidence of a material or workmanship failure. We do see these fail and I'm not even certain that Martin is using this joint on these anymore John Hall would know.
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
be aware the Martin changed the bolt on neck and in fact it is often not bolted. They use a sliding dovetail joint on all the guitars below a 18 grade. I use steam , I tried the dry heater and I you don't have the control you do with steam.
Most people over steam the joint.
you have to drill a much larger hole . The secret is 2 holes, one on each side of the truss rod. 3/32 with steam . I use a needle and shoot in hot water then steam. Hit for about a min and hit the other hole , take a min break and repeat. In 25 years I never had blushing issues . A lot of the blush isn't blush , it is residue from the glue.
One out you treat it like any other reset. If you have the sliding dovetail you go get a 1/4 20 screw and bolt it back in. I do shim the joints when i reset these neck. I wish Martin did the standard tenon with 2 screws , it would have made a better bolt on joint.
Author:  joshnothing [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
Had to pull the neck on a HPL/kitchen countertop Martin with mortise and tenon today so thought I’d update with a few pics for the sake of anyone browsing in future :

Image
Image

They were maybe a little shy when it came to glue on the tenon :D
Author:  Skarsaune [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
joshnothing wrote:
They were maybe a little shy when it came to glue on the tenon :D



Cost savings! :mrgreen:
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steaming apart a Martin 15 series neck joint
joshnothing wrote:
Had to pull the neck on a HPL/kitchen countertop Martin with mortise and tenon today so thought I’d update with a few pics for the sake of anyone browsing in future :

Image
Image

They were maybe a little shy when it came to glue on the tenon :D


I turn those over face down and make my sandwich on their backs, great surface area and it wipes clean easily. :) Kidding of course.............. :? :D
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/