Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:04 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:11 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Got the top off the plywood guitar. My first learning experience with routing other than rosettes. Two things I learned that another noob might be interested in.
1. StewMac tells you to rout 'climbing' four paths around the guitar, then reverse and go all the way around CCW. That probably works fine on wood edges, but I was routing thru the top of the plastic binding and purfling to see the edge of the old top. The plastic dies not like routing in a changed direction. Should have just kept climbing, which means letting the rotation of the router (CW) bite into and 'pull' along the edge of the guitar. As a result, have a slight mahogany side repair.
2. I made the rout body holding fixture out of a double sink sized piece of formica mounted on sawhorses. I could walk all around it, which I thought was the goal, but most of the ones you see smarter guys use are cantilevered and leave the body of the guitar supported in space so you can walk around it without having to watch where your feet are stepping/tripping. I'll remake mine before I rout off the other all solid wood guitar top. Some of the kerfed top support was coming loose, so it's being reglued now. Roy
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:15 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Image
Did some routing today, got the top off the Italian Monarch without any real drama. No back support bracing at all, guess the fairly deep laminated arched back is strong enough without it. Had to do a little kerfing repair. Two newbie points to remember...the Stew Mac routing advice is to do a climb cut in four places around the body, then change to CCW and go all the way around. That probably is good input for routing bare wood, don't do it when plastic binding is involved. (Duh). The plastic just wants to see the router bit in one direction. Left me with a little side splinter to reglue. Also, my holding table for the body was too large, (got in the way of my feet), so I borrowed an idea I saw in one of the other build threads and made one for the Phillipino guitar that's a bit more of a cantilever style. No more worrying about your feet instead of the router.
Image
Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:31 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
This guitar from the Philipines is kind of interesting. It was a nylon folk guitar I bought in the late sixties when I was over there. Handmade in a little town called Tarlac, just north of Clark AB, which is where I was. It has bamboo kerfing, the top was nailed onto the head block (not sure of the right name) after the neck was attached, and it must have been sold to me with a second rate top with all sorts of cleats inside to hide impending cracks. It is an all solid wood guitar, and I have no idea what the back and sides are made from. A few pix..
Image
Not so sure whether to try to do anything with the kerfing, it's pretty well attached, or just use it cutting new brace holes.
Image
Notice the bent nail in the headblock.
Image
And here's the back. I guess that's flatsawn, right? I was told it's Japanese Rosewood when I bought it, never heard of that.
Image
I'll be awhile getting ready to attach new tops to these. For one thing, I don't think I have enough clamps yet.
Roy


Last edited by flemsmith on Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:42 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2363
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Those diamond cleats are way over-sized.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Yes, but what surprised me is that guitar was never at a repair shop. I bought it freshly made, and clearly it had some cracks in the top that they hid well enough I never saw them until I'd let it dry out from lack of interest much later. Plus all the cleats have a tiny hole in the center which makes me think they actually did it after mounting the top. Just kind of interesting to think of how the assembly techniques are a bit unique from what was then pretty close to a third world country, at least in the countryside. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:17 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Continuing in the vein of things not to do like I did if you're a beginner...
Image
For some reason I didn't understand that when you mount the top, the braces should go inside the sides, not on top.That coupled with the fact that I routed the original top off a little too deeply left me with some gaps that I felt should be filled in so the binding has more meat to attach itself to. I had some thin cherry and walnut I had cut in tuning up my bandsaw, so...
Image
And then I was ready to start the binding and purfling. I didn't take pix of the first one, but I was using CA in between the tape, and I way overdid it on the CA, (evidently it should be closer to a drop that stays away from the tape?) so now I need to clean up CA that ran under the tape, it's quite the mess. I'm hoping this one does not have that same problem. Won't know for sure til I pull the tape.
Image
til my next mistake.....Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:28 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Forgot to mention that I did add kerfing to the Philippine guitar. Not so much a mistake, just wasn't sure there was enough attachment area with only the bamboo.
Image

Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:25 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, binding on both guitars. Ended up looking ok for my first try, I think. Just used my cheap Harbor freight laminate trimmer, plus the Stew Mac basic bearing set. I did stress a bit over how to get set up for a fairly exact cut of both ledges, which I can't brag about. But sandpaper fixes a good bit. Filipino guitar; top is roasted cedar, so a bit darker than I would have chosen if I was thinking from experience.
Image
The Italian Monarch. One noob mistake I should mention; I was using CA to tack the binding down, but I way overdid it while the binding and purfling were taped, should have just used a drop in all the spaces between tape til I took the tape off the next day. I'm still doing some cleanup of the side where the tape got super glued to the side. Good news is I think I could do a better job the next time I do one. Another mistake I made is when I ordered the purfling, I didn't really have a plan for what I wanted, so I ended up with a tiny strip of black that I really should have bought already laminated to the black and white.
Image
Guess I could at least do a close up pic or two, can't tell much at a full view. What you can tell from that pic is that I didn't do a great job of glueing the two halves of the top together initially, so I redid it, and when I did, I took most of the center out of one side. So you can see the two darker streaks are not symmetrical as they should be. So far I'm happy to be learning all this stuff from re-topping cheap guitars rather than starting off with a $600 plus kit and making the same mistakes. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:53 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
So here's a closer pic of the binding and purfling. Pretty plain jane, but that's what I wanted to try for my first time, especially since I've no way to bend any wood bindings, which would have been a preference... someday. Since they are old guitars, I used cream instead of white; don't think either would have been a perfect match to the back bindings.
Image
Image

Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:45 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Just a quick note to say I haven't given up...just got sidetracked by a few other things and then started trying to rattle can the top lacquer finish when the weather here turned cold and rainy. I'll be back. Just not sure exactly when. With some luck I might even learn to use my cheap HVLP gun before I'm done. Finishes be hard to learn. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:33 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, I could use some feedback. Been using the StewMac rattle can nitro. Have used two cans between the two guitars after vinyl seal and sanding seal, then sanding just at 220 grit. Would it be a mistake to change lacquer to something I can spray with my cheap HVLP rather than buy another can of Stew Mac clear? I hate to do any more aerosol, cause I get too thick of coverage in the middle of my spray pattern, and I'm pretty confident I could get a finer mist with the gun.

And then, (afraid I didn't do a good job of counting how many coats I have so far, but I emptied two full cans) I don't really know how to tell if I have enough lacquer and should let it cure for a month then start to level and do finer sanding etc, etc, or if I should keep spraying lacquer looking for some level of perfection in the coverage before I do the above. Right now they look pretty fair, and feel pretty smooth, but I can see the grain pretty readily...Thanks for any advice. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:38 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1874
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Well, once again I will tell you what I think and once again I will preface it by saying "I am not an expert but this is what has worked for me....."

If I have a well prepared starting surface (which means a pretty good job of pore filling for porous wood and smooth to 320 for everything) I generally shoot 2 or 3 or 4 coats of vinyl sealer (or the aerosol "sanding sealer") and anywhere from 12 to 20 coats of nitro. I just keep shooting and sanding until I am satisfied that I have a smooth surface and all the flaws are covered. That can be either rattle cans or with my gun - one thing to remember about rattle cans is a fairly large percentage of what is in the can is propellant - so a pint of rattle does not equal a pint from the gun.

I have mixed rattle and gun lacquer and it seems OK, but I prefer not too. There has been some discussion that StewMac's lacquers are slightly different than some others - one source says they put naphtha in both their aerosols and regular stuff. I don't know if it makes a difference (and so far it doesn't seem to) but it just seems better to stick with one manufacture's product all the way thru. For this reason I also use the same brand reducer to thin lacquer for my gun (however I use cheaper generic lacquer thinner from the box stores for clean up).

StewMac admits that its going to take a lot of lacquer to finish a guitar - they suggest a can of sealer and four of lacquer for an average acoustic. That seems about right - I also seem to use close to a quart of liquid lacquer on an average guitar.

I remember back to my old hot rod days from the 1960's when we would do lacquer paint jobs and joke (kind of) that 90 percent of the lacquer went onto the floor as we sanded. I guess I'm still in that mind set today.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:59 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
ok, thanks, appreciate the insight. I think I'm gonna change to the HVLP. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:38 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:26 pm
Posts: 236
First name: Carl
Last Name: Dickinson
City: Forest Ranch
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 95942
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Roy, make sure you check out B. Howard's blog on spraying finishes. It helped me a lot.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:47 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Carl, thanks. I re-read it a few days ago. Helpful for sure, and with my memory I'll probably need to read it again by the time my first batch of lacquer gets here.

Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:17 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
So now I'm spraying lacquer thru my cheapo Harbor Freight HVLP gun...can't say I'm feeling totally confident in how good a pattern I'm able to adjust, but I will say it's boucoup better than a rattlecan. I'm cleaning the gun as soon as I finish spraying, and today I tried to do about three sprays separated by 20-30 minutes. I could tell the pattern was getting hard to keep in good adjustment by the third spray, so mebbe I need to limit myself to one additional spray after a 30 minute wait and then spray some lacquer thinner before I do any more spraying. We had a couple of very nice calm days, but today was pretty breezy, so painted in my garage. pic link ff. I can't say I really know just when I should stop and let it cure. The guitar on the right looks like it could be done pretty quickly. The one on the left not so much. I didn't write down how many coats, but it's probably 6 or so by now. Roy
[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Ebayother/i-3LNJ348/0/2861739d/S/20200209_120529-S.jpg[img]


Last edited by flemsmith on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:20 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2363
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
I bought an "better quality" harbor freight gun a few months ago and was having trouble getting a consistent spray pattern. Turned out the small pressure regulator mounted at the gun that I bought at the same time was the culprit. It would not hold the pressure evenly. Threw it away and got a USA made regulator that works MUCH better. Now I am happy again. The gun is actually quite good.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: flemsmith (Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:46 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:06 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Went to Harbor Freight this am with my 20% off coupon and upgraded from the 19.95 model I bought years ago to the $35 one that is labelled for touch-up. It turns out to be much easier to set up a decent pattern, and the small cup is fine for what I'm doing, seeing as how I spray both guitars holding them vertically, horizontally, and at a 45 degree angle, then clean the gun. I may learn how to do the lacquer spraying yet. Then I have to decide when I've got enough coverage, and how gently (or not) to do the leveling and final sand. So far I must say the woodworking is more fun than the finishing. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:45 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, two tops...here's the Filipino one
Image
Although I sprayed lacquer on both, I sanded thru on the Italian Monarch guitar at 320, so thought I'd try to finish this one first before I put more lacquer on the other. Especially since I made a couple mistakes on this one that I didn't on the Monarch.
For some reason I thought it would be a good idea to brush some shellac all over the top at the start. It looked horrible, splotchy, etc. So I sanded it all back off. By the time I got it off, the top was thinner than it probably should be, I actually broke a piece of the cedar off inside the rosette, and was measuring about .060" where it broke. The patch is right in front of the neck location. Plus, there are some spots around the edge where I sanded some gouges/low spots. On both guitars, I think I glued the braces on too forcefully, I can see the locations of at least the bridge and maybe the X braces; dunno, mebbe I crushed the cedar a bit? Things I've learned not to do on a real kit guitar.
So after the lacquer (I didn't count religiously, but I'm sure I have at least 12 coats on both) I started to level sand with 320, trying to get rid of all the shiny spots, then 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000. Then I went to what I had around, Turtle Wax Light to Medium polishing compound, then Meguiar's Swirl Remover. I was quite disappointed, although it is shiny and smooth, could see all sorts of scratches. Thought at first they were from before I sprayed any lacquer, and since the top is so thin, I should just live with it; but after looking and working a couple more times I'm beginning to think I should have used something more aggressive between the 2000 and the Turtle Wax. So I'm looking to order something, and would be appreciative of a best choice beginning polishing compound, as well as any polishing technique advice. I do have a buffer, but frankly at this stage, it's scary to try to use. I'd rather finish by hand and/or by a drill with the StewMac foam pads. Thanks in advance for any inputs, Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:23 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, I'm thinking I must be asking que that are too elementary and I should be able to figure out myself. So I bought some more wet/dry sandpaper, 2500, 3000, 5000, and 7000 grit. I can absolutely say that any scratches I was seeing are in the top surface of the lacquer, which is very reassuring. I worked my way thru these grits, changing 45 degree sanding directions until I got to 7000, which I used parallel to the grain. It looks pretty nice, much better than before, but with the right lighting, I can still see some scratches, although much finer now. I also ordered the Stew Mac polishing compounds, not received yet. Will see if they take out the scratches I now have, or whether I need to find something in between. Every little bit of learning adds to the small amount of confidence I'm generating. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:46 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, final update on the Filipino guitar. I made so many mistakes on this poor guitar, including trying to sand out some shellac I put on the top that I didn't think looked right; and it started with the top at 0.100", by the time I got thru with that issue, the top thickness was down to about 0.070", so I was happy that it didn't implode when I strung it up. And it actually sounds pretty good. Nylon strings still stretching, so haven't played it enough to really comment on the sound yet.
Image
Image
The italian is behind a bit because I sanded thru the lacquer, so it had to get 6 more coats of lacquer, wait a month, and tried to finish sand and polish it. Did not come out nearly as bright and shiny as this one, even though I thought it leveled much better. I'm thinking about it now, but I'll probably make a decision about what grade sandpaper to start over with....800?! Since they both had the same lacquer up until I added the 6 more coats, I am guessing that I was too gentle with each successive grit of sandpaper because I was worried about sanding thru it. Or mebbe I was too cheap, reusing sandpaper I'd already used on this one and I need to use new paper when I go at it again. At any rate, this is the first guitar I've done this much work on, and just to get it playable and looking decent at a few feet away makes me feel I can do so much better the next time. (Which has already started.) Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:37 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Roy L
Last Name: Smith
City: Apache Junction
State: Az
Zip/Postal Code: 85119
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
I hate threads that seem like they might be worth reading, and then they just die. Typically I post when I'm trying something totally new and don't really know what the hell. Which as of late has not been about this little italian guitar. The neck was so warped, I just moved on to other things. But along the way I did buy a cheap ebay mahogony neck which I had not used at all, and I thought this might be a good time to try learning how the neck joint details work for a typical older guitar, the mortise and tenon joint izzit called? So I got out my comparative mech caliper and tried to cut the end of the neck to match the neck I took off, plus the shim I thought it would need when I was thinking of trying to use it in spite of the warp. I think I really should have taken my measurements from the existing guitar neck block.
Image
So it's not perfectly aligned at the centerline of the top, that probably needs some shimwork, but I've yet to buy a fretboard, so I suspect I'll need to do more alighnment stuff. But, it seems like I could actually make one of those neck mounts work. mebbe. Will update when I actually do anything significant. For now I just wanted to share trying something new.
Any guitars I actually build will be bolt ons. Roy


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com