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 Post subject: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Somebody gave me this seagull 12 string. The headstock had broken and was superglued back together. Any tips on how one would get it apart to reglue properly?


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:37 pm 
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I'm not a repair guy so I won't have anything meaningful to advise. I'm curious though, it looks like it is holding under tension even though it the parts were not fitted back together properly. Is that correct or is it failing and pulling apart (creeping)?

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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If it's not coming apart, save yourself some trouble and leave it alone. Touch up the looks if you want, but if it's holding - don't bother. Wait until the joint fails, because cleaning up the joint is no fun.

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: Jeffrey L. Suits (Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:36 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:31 am 
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Chris Pile wrote:
If it's not coming apart, save yourself some trouble and leave it alone. Touch up the looks if you want, but if it's holding - don't bother. Wait until the joint fails, because cleaning up the joint is no fun.

I can attest to that. (No, don't ask)


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Bryan Bear wrote:
I'm not a repair guy so I won't have anything meaningful to advise. I'm curious though, it looks like it is holding under tension even though it the parts were not fitted back together properly. Is that correct or is it failing and pulling apart (creeping)?


No it wasn't under tension, which as it turns out was the best way to get the headstock off. :D


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Well there you go. . . Now comes the hard part.

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:12 am 
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I can't tell if you got it open or not - if not I would have just assumed the CA fix was OK and added a back strap to reinforce it. I would also replace the head plate. If you are going to do both, do one of them and redrill the tuner holes thru it, then do the other and drill. Otherwise it will be like trying to drill the holes in a swiss cheese sandwich.

Since Seagull uses bolt on necks I would take it off - much easier to work with.

I had a similar problem - a Guild 12 string repaired with epoxy that didn't completely cure. I cleaned it up as best I could, added a backstrap and spline and its two years and counting

Image


Last edited by Freeman on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Conor_Searl (Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am)
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Acetone will dissolve cured CA glue, correct?

It will also dissolve a number of finishes, so be careful. But it might be a helpful tool in this less-than-fun repair, repair.


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:55 pm 
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So just getting to this now...

The way this headstock broke is not a clean break at all. Having been previously super-glued together didn't help.

How does one go about dealing with the thousand of tiny fingers that now need to go back together and won't? Is the dry fit I have the best I should hope for?


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:32 pm 
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Quote:
The way this headstock broke is not a clean break at all. Having been previously super-glued together didn't help.


And that might be an insurmountable problem. But you won't find out until you've glued it together and it doesn't hold. Put on your magnifying headgear with the lights, and wheedle all the little spots of glue out with a sharp Exacto blade and tweezers. Clean up some of the glue with acetone, but don't get crazy.

Quote:
How does one go about dealing with the thousand of tiny fingers that now need to go back together and won't? Is the dry fit I have the best I should hope for?


The same way I mentioned above. It'd tedious, and takes a long time. Sometimes you can straighten out the splinters so they go back together properly. It's a pain, so prepare yourself. Put it together, take it apart, adjust, remove, do it all over again until it's just not getting any better. Do a couple dry runs of putting it together and clamping it before finally taking the plunge and applying glue.

Good luck - I've been there a LOT of times, and all it takes is patience and determination. Then you get to touch up the finish if the repair works!

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: Conor_Searl (Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:50 am)
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 am 
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Chris Pile wrote:
Do a couple dry runs of putting it together and clamping it before finally taking the plunge and applying glue.


Any suggestions on how to get appropriate clamping pressure on a break like this once its together? If it broke at a gentler angle I could see how you could do it, but parts of this break are practically 90 degrees, and I can't figure out how to put any pressure on it when joining the headstock back to the neck.


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:57 am 
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Make a jig or fixture to hold and help clamp the pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Conor_Searl wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
Do a couple dry runs of putting it together and clamping it before finally taking the plunge and applying glue.


Any suggestions on how to get appropriate clamping pressure on a break like this once its together? If it broke at a gentler angle I could see how you could do it, but parts of this break are practically 90 degrees, and I can't figure out how to put any pressure on it when joining the headstock back to the neck.


David Collins has an absolutely elegant jig at Ann Arbor guitars, I made a very mickey mouse verstion. His it totally adjustable, mine requires shims. Here it is with a dummy neck, I was going to do one with a volute so I had to notch the back caul to clear. The basic idea is to hold the neck shaft down, force the broken piece in from the end and clamp a block against that (I tap it with a hammer, David has a cool little screw tighteners.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I'm going to guess that you are going to need a back strap or splines or both to hold that.

ps - Don Earlewine talks about your kind of fractured failure and suggests NOT to try to fit it back together while you are working on it. He says that you'll just push the remaining fibers sideways, then when you pull it apart it will only be worse. As Chris says, just patiently pick at it with tweezers and a dental tool, pull out as much fiber as you can, get ready and smack it together.

pps - breaking at a shallower angle does not necessarily make it easier. The glue lubricates the surfaces and you have a very powerful mechanical ramp - just like gluing up a scarf joint. The easy ones are the ones that aren't broken all the way thru



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Conor_Searl (Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:29 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Seeing that is totally helpful. I was having a hard time imagining a possible jig, thanks Freeman.

I did read the section in Dan Erlewine's book, but other than that warning it was a little light on the what to do stuff. ;)

Is titebond okay for this kind of repair? I've seen a few people online suggest epoxy. The only kind of epoxy I'm really familiar with is that cheap 2 part stuff that turns grey you find at hardware stores.


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Titebond....

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Titebond or HHG which I don't have the skill to use within its working window, so for me its Titebond. If you decide to use epoxy make sure it is the high strength 24 hour stuff and you mix it absolutely perfectly. I had an epoxy "repaired" headstock brought to me to be re-repaired. In fact, the 12 string in a previous post.

This is the jig I dream of. You should have all the Ann Arbor vid bookmarked

https://youtu.be/D6lzTM__Yrs



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post (total 2): Durero (Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:46 pm) • Conor_Searl (Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:26 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:31 pm 
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Someone suggested sandwiching the existing headstock between upper and lower headplates, having first thinned the headstock so as to not make it too thick. That's what I'd do, given the opportunity. And seeing as the headstock will be covered, splines can be installed to bridge the break. I don't see a benefit in trying to break the headstock repair apart, it seems to be holding right now, and an additional wicking-in of super glue wouldn't hurt much before installing the headplates. It might well wind up looking better than new when all the work's finished. just please don't install the headplates with super glue.

And whether the Seagull neck is bolted in or glued together with an assembly bolt is a question that needs answering. I have a new Seagull Walnut 12 and I asked Seagull, and the customer service person told me that my neck was glued into the body, with the bolt being used to hold it all together while the glue dries. So some time in the past, date unknown, Seagull changed its assembly technique. But I think a note to Seagull with the serial number of the instrument will get an answer about whether the neck is glued on.

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Progress report?

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Chris Pile wrote:
Progress report?


Haha, it's enjoying my closet right now. I've accumulated several learning experiences, and realized I'm a tad overly ambitious in my free time estimation. During the school year I teach guitar lessons full time, and have looked at summer as the time when I can learn how to do some of these more major projects I've got kicking around. However I've learned I'm more productive when I put one of them in front of me and follow it through to the end rather than peck away at a bunch of things. So I'm just finishing up my first neck reset on a different guitar. Progress is being made, just not on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:02 pm 
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It'll keep.

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:05 pm 
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So I've spent a lot of time getting this splintery mess cleaned up, and removing the super glue. But as this is my very first head stock repair I'm not sure if I'm finished. It feels like its as clean as I can get it, but the break is still not perfectly back together, and in some areas never will be since there is material missing.

Does this look like its ready to be re-glued or should I try and get a cleaner fit? I do plan on at least adding a back strap, but maybe an overlay on the head stock as well which should deal with the cosmetics.


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:16 pm 
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I've glued stuff up that was about like that with success - but if you can still see spots of glue, keep working. I think you can make it live and breathe again.

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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:59 pm 
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So here it is, fresh out of the clamps. I still need to clean up some squeeze out and some wax paper that stuck to my glue but I'm pretty happy.

Now I definitely don't trust the joint as it is, and I'm thinking of using ebony to replace the faceplate, and some mahogany veneer for the backstrap. But if I do I'm going to lose the stamped serial number on the back of the headstock, and I'll lose the Seagull logo on the current faceplate. What do you think, does this matter? These guitars go for about $300 in good condition, and I doubt will ever be very collectible. This will have a repaired headstock, but I've gotta think that a 12 string in good playable condition with a solid top is worth at least $200 regardless of what the brand is. So who cares if I lose the logo and serial number, but then again?

Regarding the backstrap, how thick should I make it? I'm thinking I'll want to remove and replace at least as much material as it takes to hide the missing wood on the back of the treble side of the headstock.

Finally, because I had to clean up so much superglue from the previous owner I've lost a little wood. I think some of it will be hidden by the backstrap, but on the treble side of the headstock there are some small voids where the fingers of the break don't touch anymore. Should I just fill those with superglue?


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 Post subject: Re: superglued headstock
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:41 pm 
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OP can make a headplate and a backplate as thick as he wants, so long as he honors the original thickness. No reason to use veneers if a - - - for the sake of discussion, top and bottom plate of 1/8" thickness each is used. That and some splines hidden under the plates and a cleanup and refinish, and all's good. The thicker plates will allow the bottom plate to go deeper onto the shaft of the neck, which would nicely reinforce the repair.

As for the serial number, copy it down and write it on the label inside the body.

And authenticity, by my lights, is nothing to worry about. This looks to be an older instrument and a good repair would be an asset for me, not a detriment. The label inside tells what kind of a guitar it started out as.

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