Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:56 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:01 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Pics: https://imgur.com/a/Kp4B6

It's an old cheap Washburn 12 string. Crazy high action. From my assessment the neck looks straight, no bends around the tongue. The neck angle is off but there is a belly. Just not sure if the belly is big enough to be the cause and if it requires both repairs or just 1.

I'm interested in trying the 12 string bridge doctor from StewMac: http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/To ... octor.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:37 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 10040
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
The belly does not look excessive from what I can see in your pics. Have you checked for loose braces and a worn bridge plate? Contrary to what we might read at times on the Internet some belly is not necessarily a bad thing. No jokes please...;)

Since you are in the deep freeze too hopefully the pics were taken of an RH stabilized in 40 - 50% instrument? If not the measurements are skewed and unreliable.

The neck angle looks a little underset and neck angle is even more critical on a 12 since they are a struggle to play with higher action.

Not a fan of the bridge Dr. here. Instead any loose braces to be reglued and/or a worn bridge plate benefitting from a cap would be my approach.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:15 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
The belly does not look excessive from what I can see in your pics. Have you checked for loose braces and a worn bridge plate? Contrary to what we might read at times on the Internet some belly is not necessarily a bad thing. No jokes please...;)

Since you are in the deep freeze too hopefully the pics were taken of an RH stabilized in 40 - 50% instrument? If not the measurements are skewed and unreliable.

The neck angle looks a little underset and neck angle is even more critical on a 12 since they are a struggle to play with higher action.

Not a fan of the bridge Dr. here. Instead any loose braces to be reglued and/or a worn bridge plate benefitting from a cap would be my approach.


There are no loose braces RH is at 35%.
I didn't look at the bridge plate but the guitar is basically new, just sat around for years in a case strung up.
Unless the bridge plate can still wear from string pressure?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:19 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3645
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
I'm with Hesh.... Screw the Bridge Doctor. I've had guys ask me to remove them.... It's a tone killer that adds mass to the top.

As for the axe - pics of the guitar not strung up to tension are useless when talking about high action. I want to see how high.

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!



These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: Hesh (Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:28 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 813
Location: Durango CO
First name: Dave
Last Name: Farmer
City: Durango
State: CO
I recommend doing any bridge or top work first and stringing it up. If you need to do the neck re-set, you'll need a fixed bridge height target to aim for.

+1 to what Chris said too. An accurate diagnosis before wheeling into surgery is importnt.



These users thanked the author david farmer for the post: Hesh (Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:41 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1220
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Let me tell a little story. I own a lovely old Martin 12 string. The action was getting higher, the saddle lower, it too seemed to be developing a bit of a belly. I too thought that maybe a little belly reduction would be just what the Doctor ordered, so I bought one of the devices. As you have probably learned in doing your research, there are two models. One mounts to the bridge plate by a screw that goes thru the bridge, one has funky little brass pins that have holes in the heads - they replace your standard pins. Not wanting to drill any extra holes in the top of my old Martin I elected to use the latter.

I installed the thing, tightened the rod that presses against the tail block (while asking myself if this was really a good idea, it seemed kind of counter productive to the concept of how the top on a guitar should work). First observation, it lowered the belly a bit, but it was still there. Certainly not as much as I had hoped for.

Second observation, I made a new saddle but it was still pretty low and strings going to the heads of the "pins" there was very little break angle (frankly I don't remember if I put this in the front or back row of holes). It simply sounded terrible.

Took the JLD out (its in a drawer in the shop somewhere), had the neck reset as I should of in the first place with another new saddle the correct height now and that old guitar plays like a dream.

Remember that the guitars that successfully use a JLD (Breedlove) have it designed in from the get go. If you go to Frank Fords site and browse thru the pictures of different bracing schemes you'll see that Breedloves have much deeper scallops than most guitars - to compensate for the stiffness added by the JLD they have scalloped the hell out of it. If after all of this you do decide to try one, I suggest the screw mounted version. The pins are just wrong.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Hesh (Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:31 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:09 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Chris Pile wrote:
I'm with Hesh.... Screw the Bridge Doctor. I've had guys ask me to remove them.... It's a tone killer that adds mass to the top.

As for the axe - pics of the guitar not strung up to tension are useless when talking about high action. I want to see how high.


Ok, I'll have it strung up in a few minutes. Same type of pics?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:15 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1220
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
FL6 wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
I'm with Hesh.... Screw the Bridge Doctor. I've had guys ask me to remove them.... It's a tone killer that adds mass to the top.

As for the axe - pics of the guitar not strung up to tension are useless when talking about high action. I want to see how high.


Ok, I'll have it strung up in a few minutes. Same type of pics?


Best picture is the end of a 24 inch straight edge sitting on the frets pointing to the bridge. If it is over the top of the bridge, show how much. Also I find it helpful to know what the action measures at the 12th fret and how much relief you have when tuned to whatever you decide is best (many of us would tune a 12 string two semi tones down).

Also lay the straight edge across the lower bout behind the bridge and measure the gap to the rim on both sides - yours looks pretty normal if the guitar is properly humidified.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Hesh (Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:32 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:36 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Here's some more pics. I'm using 10-47's, tuned down a full step.
Showing measurements at the 12th and last fret on both sides along with measurements at the bridge.
https://imgur.com/a/MX3cS

Edit: Truss rod is at its' tightest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:38 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 10040
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Bridge plate should be fine, I thought this was an old girl so no worries.

If the neck is pretty flat, meaning very little relief and these are your measurements at the 12th it needs a neck reset.

The question is is this guitar worth doing a neck reset on meaning does it have a serviceable neck joint i.e. bolt-on, dovetail or is it a doweled joint requiring unnatural acts to convert it to a bolt on and remove it as well.

PS: 35% is too low for a guitar shop, 40 - 50 is better. Be sure your hygrometer is calibrated too many of them tell us what we want to hear and are way... off....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:49 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3645
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
You've got plenty of saddle height left - sand some off the bottom. If the nut slots need lowering do it after you've lowered the saddle. If all else fails, install a set of Silk & Steels (I like Martins).... they have much lower string tension, and are softer to play. They are not as loud as bronze strings.... but will provide plenty of playing fun for the client.

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:21 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
Bridge plate should be fine, I thought this was an old girl so no worries.

If the neck is pretty flat, meaning very little relief and these are your measurements at the 12th it needs a neck reset.

The question is is this guitar worth doing a neck reset on meaning does it have a serviceable neck joint i.e. bolt-on, dovetail or is it a doweled joint requiring unnatural acts to convert it to a bolt on and remove it as well.

PS: 35% is too low for a guitar shop, 40 - 50 is better. Be sure your hygrometer is calibrated too many of them tell us what we want to hear and are way... off....


I'll look into the joint area. It's my guitar so it's mine to screw up laughing6-hehe
I was hoping for an easier solution. On one hand it will be fun to tackle a complicated project like this, on the other hand not sure how valuable the learning experience will be, as in I can't see myself doing many of these if at all. Or course there's always some learning to do.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:27 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Chris Pile wrote:
You've got plenty of saddle height left - sand some off the bottom. If the nut slots need lowering do it after you've lowered the saddle. If all else fails, install a set of Silk & Steels (I like Martins).... they have much lower string tension, and are softer to play. They are not as loud as bronze strings.... but will provide plenty of playing fun for the client.


Really? I thought I had very little height left. Am I correct in the understanding that if I want 1mm lower action at the 12th fret I would have to take off 2mm at the saddle? I think I read that at frets.com. To me the action seems so high that a reset in the only option. I thought maybe the belly would do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:29 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Can I ask why everyone is so dead against shaving the bridge down?
Is it because of tone loss?

edit: or because the neck's going to continue to pull towards the shortened bridge anyways?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3645
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Quote:
Really? I thought I had very little height left.


Looking at your pix, I can easily see you have an eighth inch of saddle sticking up. Take at least a sixteenth off it, more if you have to. If the strings don't break over behind the saddle afterwards, then you can file a bit more ramp into the string relief.

No one is dead set against shaving the bridge down. It's the option of last resort, because a thinner bridge can split more easily and then you've REALLY got troubles.

What are you afraid of? The guitar is already out of whack, just take our advice and see if we know WTH we are talking about. Isn't that why you posted this thread?

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:22 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
Really? I thought I had very little height left.


Looking at your pix, I can easily see you have an eighth inch of saddle sticking up. Take at least a sixteenth off it, more if you have to. If the strings don't break over behind the saddle afterwards, then you can file a bit more ramp into the string relief.

No one is dead set against shaving the bridge down. It's the option of last resort, because a thinner bridge can split more easily and then you've REALLY got troubles.

What are you afraid of? The guitar is already out of whack, just take our advice and see if we know WTH we are talking about. Isn't that why you posted this thread?


I'm good. Thanks for the advice.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:27 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 813
Location: Durango CO
First name: Dave
Last Name: Farmer
City: Durango
State: CO
FL6 wrote:
Edit: Truss rod is at its' tightest.


What is relevant to determining the neck angle is not how tight the rod is but how straight the neck is.


FL6 wrote:
Can I ask why everyone is so dead against shaving the bridge down?

??
The only thing I'm against is deciding on a course of action before understanding the problem.
Neck angle can only be determined after excess relief is removed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:15 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 10040
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Yup the distance that you need to reduce string height at the 12th is doubled at the saddle. It's not exactly twice mind you because different saddle heights pull the top differently but it's very close.

Saddle shaving is frowned upon these days in the commercial world because it's not reversible. However we still on occasion do it too when 1) The instrument has a value that makes sense to repair and 2). It's bridge is exceptionally high. Martin and some others may use different bridges of different heights for different neck angles meaning at times the OEM bridge is too high and shaving it down will have several benefits. Less mass on the sweet spot of the top, better looks and of course better break angle for the same string height and/or the ability to get lower action.

Shaving a saddle has to be "appropriate for the instrument" too. It would be appropriate for this one, no offense intended...;)

Good on you for recognizing on your own that the learning value of resetting a doweled neck joint is of questionable value. You will never be asked to do this in the commercial world and we would not even take it on because it's all potential liability and the economics are not there when a proper reset and what else is needed exceed the price of the guitar and then some. We do resets all of the time and just did a 50's O-18 in the last couple of days.

EDIT: That should have read shaving a bridge not a saddle..... sheesh I'm a dotard.....


Last edited by Hesh on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:45 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1220
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Just to repeat what others have already told you

1) You look to have about 1/8 dome ("belly") in the top. That is fairly normal for a hydrated guitar. The Bridge Doc won't help it

2) I have two rules of thumb for telling if the neck angle is OK. First, with minimum relief in the neck (less than 0.010) a straight edge on the f/b should just touch the top of a normal (3/8) bridge. Second, IF you have acceptable action AND you have at least 1/8 inch of saddle sticking out of the slot THEN the neck angle is OK. From what I see in the pictures your guitar fails both.

3) A neck reset is not a trivial undertaking. You definitely need to know what kind of joint it is and what kind of glue was used. I'm going to guess that its a dovetail (Hesh, why are you talking doweled?) and it may or may not be a glue that releases with heat and moisture. I see a fair number of Yamaha 12 strings (owned one once) that need resets - I won't touch them because of the glue. Definitely research this before you start.

4) You might be able to sand the saddle and gain some time before the inevitable reset. Shaving the bridge dramatically weakens it (normally 2/3 of the saddle should be in the slot). If you shave the saddle then when you finally do the reset you'll just have to replace the bridge too. I will admit to shaving one saddle in my life time - it was on an Ovation that simply could not be reset.

I certainly wouldn't shave the saddle until you had tried (and failed) to pull the neck.

There is one other way to reset the neck angle and that is to convert it to a bolt on neck. I have an old Yamie that is dear to me but I couldn't get the neck off so I did the conversion. Its my personal guitar, I knew what I was getting into, I would never do it for a "customer". If all else fails and you want to pursue this I can show you what I did.

[ps - I'll add a 12 string neck reset horror story. Someone brought a beautiful maple Guild 12 string to me - it needed a reset. Guild finishes their guitars after the neck is put on. The odds of me screwing up the finish were very high, I suggested a few other repair people who could do the work. Six months later he brought the guitar back to me to install a UST. . I drilled the hole for the pickup wire, sanded 50 thou off the bottom of the saddle before I realized that some bozo had shaved the bridge by an 1/8. Short story, there was almost no saddle in the slot, it was tipping forward badly - I ended up making taking the p/u out, making another saddle to put it back to original height (my cost) and told him I didn't want anything to do with that guitar. Please don't shave the bridge unless you have no other options



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post (total 3): DanKirkland (Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:16 am) • FL6 (Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:57 pm) • Hesh (Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:55 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:12 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 104
First name: Mike
Last Name: Spector
City: ORANGE
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 77632
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Just been following this thread with interest in that nobody suggested taking the back partly off and reset the neck by slipping the block further back. You get to learn valuable new skills like re-cutting binding channels, etc.. That way you don't actually remove the neck from the block. I did this once with a "wall-hanger" Gibsoon that had been cracked, broke and beat , top and back and "fixed" by someone with liquid nails and panel nails ..... (you get the picture) or should I send one. Anyway it worked and I still play it from time to time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:38 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 10040
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
surveyor wrote:
Just been following this thread with interest in that nobody suggested taking the back partly off and reset the neck by slipping the block further back. You get to learn valuable new skills like re-cutting binding channels, etc.. That way you don't actually remove the neck from the block. I did this once with a "wall-hanger" Gibsoon that had been cracked, broke and beat , top and back and "fixed" by someone with liquid nails and panel nails ..... (you get the picture) or should I send one. Anyway it worked and I still play it from time to time.


It's considered an unsound practice in the commercial world. Known in Michigan as a "California neck reset" and likely known in California as a "Michigan neck reset" no one wants to take the blame for the practice....

I know a guy who sued Elderly Instruments over a California neck reset gone bad. They settled of course but it was not pretty.

There are a lot of practices from the past that today's thinking does not promote. Cutting the fret board off at the body joint, shaving a bridge on a decent instrument and California/Michigan neck resets are all things that are not in vogue in terms of not ruining the reputation of your shop these days......

Also taking the back off an import with Asian mystery glue, AMG is major surgery in and of itself and can create a need, needlessly for major refinishing.... if things go south and they often do.

Unless someone simply enjoys deconstructing things regardless of how they do it there is very little experience to be gained from any unsound practice that could not be gained simply by accepting the word of pros who work in the trade. Resetting a doweled neck joint is not something that will be done in the commercial world making any experience gained limited to personal experience.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:02 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 am
Posts: 53
City: London
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: N6C5Y2
Country: Canada
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Freeman wrote:

4) You might be able to sand the saddle and gain some time before the inevitable reset.



Thanks Freeman for the summary. One last question, above when you say "inevitable reset" is that because the neck angle will continue to change even with a shaved bridge and saddle?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:31 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3645
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
If it's wood..... It can change.

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:14 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1220
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
FL6 wrote:
Freeman wrote:

4) You might be able to sand the saddle and gain some time before the inevitable reset.



Thanks Freeman for the summary. One last question, above when you say "inevitable reset" is that because the neck angle will continue to change even with a shaved bridge and saddle?


From the pictures you still have a little saddle sticking out - doesn't look like a whole lot on the bass side. You can sand it a bit more and gain a little bit of action. Shaving the bridge will gain you a bit more - lets say you take 1/8 off the top of the bridge, that might reduce your action by 1/16. However you not only weaken the bridge, you have started losing the geometry that makes the guitar play well - string height over the top, break angle behind the saddle ( a big problem on the second set of strings on a 12 banger). The neck will continue to rotate - eventually you'll want to reset it.

I've never done a slipped head block reset - it sounds like a nightmare. If you can't get the neck off what makes you think you can take the back off? Or for that mater, get the glue to release just enough to move just enough to change the angle just the right amout? I recently routed all the binding off an old jazz guitar - let me tell you that ain't pretty unless you plan to do a complete refinish.

If it was my guitar I would research what glue they might have used. Then I would pull the 15th, drill the holes and see what happens. If the neck pops, then bob's your uncle - do the reset. If the neck doesn't pop, we can discuss the options....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:16 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 235
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
surveyor wrote:
Just been following this thread with interest in that nobody suggested taking the back partly off and reset the neck by slipping the block further back. You get to learn valuable new skills like re-cutting binding channels, etc.. That way you don't actually remove the neck from the block. I did this once with a "wall-hanger" Gibsoon that had been cracked, broke and beat , top and back and "fixed" by someone with liquid nails and panel nails ..... (you get the picture) or should I send one. Anyway it worked and I still play it from time to time.


Meaning no disrespect, but that is not a good idea at all. That only compounds the problems by over 10x.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com