Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:27 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm considering trying my hand at repairs on a Seagull with a damaged top. My notion is to do the top repairs and install binding on an instrument was made with no binding. All in the interests of low-ri$k skill building. I'll need to remove the neck in order to do the binding.

So...I am ignorant of how Seagulls are assembled. More to the point, how readily are Seagull necks removed?

Advice and comments will be much appreciated.

Thanks, folks.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:40 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 9836
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Hey Peter:

It's a bolt on and you can see inside the sound hole the neck block. I believe that there is a label of sorts over the bolts. Reach in and feel the label for a depression(s) to confirm.

To remove the label in tact get a corner started with your finger nail and then with an eyedropper drip naphtha on it and all over it and wait five minutes before starting to peel. Then peel a bit, drop more naphtha in the exposed glue joint for the label and repeat and it comes off intact and the naphtha evaporates. The label can be reused to hide the bolts with a fresh application of a self stick adhesive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:59 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hesh, thanks for the advice. My motivation in asking is that a dealer is offering a new-but-damaged Seagull that I could attempt to repair and experiment with binding, but an epoxied neck would, let's say, dampen my interest a whole bit. Bolts are easy to undo, glue, nope. Any purchase will be from a distance, as the vendor isn't on any path to anywhere I'd travel. I'd be making a road trip to a luthier I trust if I bought it, just to assure that all the damage is attended to (aka tuition in the school of experience). Learning lutherie by discovery seems to be a prevalent means. I've made a couple, but repair is whole 'nother process. I want to be sure I back up far enough that going forward gets serviceable results.

_________________
Peter Havriluk



These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post: Hesh (Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:15 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:37 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3473
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Good luck. Seagull guitars are well made, no problems there.

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!



These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: Hesh (Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:15 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:19 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Wife gave permission to go buy the thing, and it's on its way.

Seller confirmed that at the top pulled away from one brace when it was damaged. Brace repair will be in order.

I'm reasonably literate and I'd appreciate some advice as to what reference material I can buy that will help educate me in repair if any exists. When we're building, it's all new wood and adhesive. Repairs, we're at the mercy, generally speaking, of whatever adhesives a factory has chosen to use, and I am pretty sure there's no repair information shipped with the guitar, like for instance, what glue to use and how to prepare to use it, to reattach wandering braces.

And again, any advice and direction will be gratefully received.

Thanks, folks.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:53 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 868
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I was on a back country ski trip a few years ago and the hut guitar was a Seagull that was nearly unplayable because the action was so high. I wiggled the neck and it wiggled back, looked inside, found a tool box with some sockets and gave the bolt(s) a little snugging. Played the guitar for the rest of the week.

I don't remember what the f/b extension is like - I assume its glued down but the neck is bolt on for sure.

As far as glue, I would assume that its a modern AR or PVA in which case its not quite as easy as HHG. Your best bet there is probably just to inject new AR and clamp as best you can. Spend some time thinking about clamps and cauls.

Also, minor point but quite a few Seagulls have cedar tops - there might be a bit more tendency for a cedar glue joint to fail in the wood (not the glue interface). I have seen several cedar tops with bridge failures where there are a lot of top wood fibers still glued to the bridge.

Last comment, rebinding an existing guitar is kind of tricky - it will be much easier with the neck off. Big problem will be finishing, its much easier to scrape binding and clean up glue before you start finishing. Not sure what Seagull uses for finish, there are some tests that will tell you if its nitro or catalyzed. (I happen to be rebinding a 1970's Ibanez right now - my ace in the hole is that its nitro)

Good luck, post pictures



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Hesh (Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:16 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:17 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Much appreciate the advice and experiences. Adds to the information base. The project became viable, in my inexperienced opinion, once I understood the neck to be bolted on. Easy off, easy back on. Nice illustrations on Seagulls web site. Easy to attend to the frets when the neck's off, says me. And the removal of the neck was going to be a necessary feature if my notions about binding are realized. Repairs first. Opinions change when hands are on the task. As nice as I heard Seagulls are, this is an entry-level instrument that I suspect would profitably accept some care and attention to the frets.

Once the instrument is in hand I'll be giving Godin a call and see what materials are appropriate for field repairs to the finish.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:16 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 9836
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Freeman wrote:
I was on a back country ski trip a few years ago and the hut guitar was a Seagull that was nearly unplayable because the action was so high. I wiggled the neck and it wiggled back, looked inside, found a tool box with some sockets and gave the bolt(s) a little snugging. Played the guitar for the rest of the week.

I don't remember what the f/b extension is like - I assume its glued down but the neck is bolt on for sure.

As far as glue, I would assume that its a modern AR or PVA in which case its not quite as easy as HHG. Your best bet there is probably just to inject new AR and clamp as best you can. Spend some time thinking about clamps and cauls.

Also, minor point but quite a few Seagulls have cedar tops - there might be a bit more tendency for a cedar glue joint to fail in the wood (not the glue interface). I have seen several cedar tops with bridge failures where there are a lot of top wood fibers still glued to the bridge.

Last comment, rebinding an existing guitar is kind of tricky - it will be much easier with the neck off. Big problem will be finishing, its much easier to scrape binding and clean up glue before you start finishing. Not sure what Seagull uses for finish, there are some tests that will tell you if its nitro or catalyzed. (I happen to be rebinding a 1970's Ibanez right now - my ace in the hole is that its nitro)

Good luck, post pictures


Yep fret board extension is glued down but easy to remove with a shield, heat lamp, time and a pallet knife.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 9836
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Peter I don't know of any one book that will focus on what you may want and need to do to this guitar. A few pointers off the top of my head to consider are:

1). Fretting with the neck on is the professional way to go. When we fret with the neck off things such as any resulting body hump in the fret board cannot be addressed. Any ski ramping, etc. also cannot be addressed. If you need to level and dress the frets or refret it do it with the neck on after you reinstall the neck.

2). Reattaching the neck is a good opportunity to restore the f*ctory neck angle or do a neck reset, same thing. If the guitar is even five years old or more it likely could have it's neck angle improved since you are in there anyway. Neck resets can be self learned if you go slow and read all you can find on the web.

3). Braces on a guitar like this one can be reglued with Titebond Original. Old glue does not need to be cleaned out and good luck with that anyway.... it's not easy or necessary for this kind of guitar.

4). The finish I don't know what it is but we've had good luck with spot repairs with Minwax wipe on poly in the sheen to match what you see on the thing. It's easy too, wipe it on and go do something else.

5). Seagulls are well made and can last for decades with care. We recommend them to folks with a budget of the $300 - $500 and we have worked on hundreds of them since we once worked for store who sold them. They are made in Canada by a company, the Godin company who treats their employees well making them a good bet in our view.

6). Be sure to examine the bridge plate too for excessive wear from cheap, slotted pins letting string balls migrate up through the top.

Good luck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:38 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks, everybody.

Sounds like I have all the advice I was looking for. Maybe, even, all the advice I need! The good part of this story is that the guitar was damaged on the way from Godin to a dealer. I bought the guitar from a dealer who seems to specialize in Godin salvage of one sort or another. Shiny 'new' but for the damage. So there's no fret/fingerboard wear to address, just the mass-production process. And the finish is unblemished save the damage. My largest visible task will be to replace a chip taken out of the wide spot of the lower bout, treble side, about a half-inch wide. The chip didn't stay with the guitar, so I need to try to match the spruce. I have an assortment of cutoffs from tops, so maybe the grain width and quartering and runout of the repair won't stand out. I'd had an idea that the top repair could be more blended if binding were present to mask the end grain of the patch and hide the regluing of the top for, my guess, eight inches where the chip came off. We'll see soon enough.

About bridge plate wear, there should not be any, the instrument being new when damaged. But this might be a good time to slot the bridge and plate and substitute solid pins for the OEM slotted ones.

What I don't want to do is compromise the build quality of the instrument. My attraction to this particular project was in great part tied to the guitar's 'Seagull' origin. Started with an honestly made instrument, I want to retain that.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:21 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 868
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Peter, as I mentioned before, one of the biggest hurdles you are going to face is what to do about the finish. According to Seagulls website "... features a semi-gloss Custom Polished Finish with a beautiful satin sheen. This finish provides excellent protection but at the same time is extremely light and elastic...." That doesn't tell me what the finish is or how to "fix" it when you bind, add wood to the top, sand and scrape - all the things you will need to do to this guitar. If it is lacquer, then repairs are relatively easy, if its one of the miracle finishes then they aren't.

As I also mentioned, I happen to be replacing the binding on an old guitar right now. I have routed the old binding off and rebound it (in plastic which is relatively easy). I have one of the floating binding routing gizmos so I don't have to worry about top and back angles, but it did take a fair amount of scraping to get the channels nice. The purfling was intact so I (mostly) have a nice line to work to, but the guitar has a beautiful sunburst finish that I'm trying not to disturb. I've bound a lot of guitars in the white, let me tell you this is ten times worse.

One thing that might be to your advantage is that with the factory finish on the wood you'll have less tear out as you route the channel.

I'm not saying don't do it, just go into the project with eyes wide open and realistic expectations.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:59 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:27 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm sure aware that there is always the option to leave well enough alone.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:06 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 1240
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
This was a timely thread, as I have a similar guitar. A sort of top-of-the-line seagull with a nice pick up system and binding I think around $700 unit that I got for 100 with a smashed top. (And nice case!) I was thinking to retop it, but was thinking the Finish would be the hardest part to not look bad. I'll be eager to see how you do!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:13 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Mercy, sometimes events move fast. Bought the guitar at the end of the day Wednesday online, and it's in my hands today (Friday). Time for Plan B. Thing's shiny new but damaged. My immediate notions now are to do the least invasion on it, repair wood and reattach what got unglued, and enjoy my new 12-string. Will consult with a luthier I trust, in a few weeks. Planned stuff to do before then.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Last edited by phavriluk on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:50 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 868
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Don't know what you paid or how badly its damaged or exactly what model it is, but I've always put the S12+ at the top of the budget 12 string lists. The ones I have seen have cedar tops, makes them somewhat fragile but I think that is also part of the reason they sound good. I also think they can be tuned to concert but I prefer a 12 string tuned down a semi tone or two.

Pictures of the damage posted here would help some of us help you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:12 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'll have to dance a bit to post a picture. But the guitar is a 'Walnut 12', an entry-level bling-free instrument, but it will serve me nicely, I think. Paid $110.00, new but damaged.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:09 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3473
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Ya done good.

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:55 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Just got home from a road trip to a luthier's lair for the day (Kevin LaDue in Whitney Point, NY). Repairs done to my satisfaction. Loose x-brace end glued to top, the top is securely attached to the sides, top cracks glued, the side has been reattached to the top very nicely, one side crack has been reinforced from the inside, and the chip in the top has been replaced by a bit of spruce salvaged from one of my top offcuts. Grain's a good match. Left to me is to do something about the finish. I'm not looking for pristine, just neat. Hesh mentioned wipe-on Minwax varnish, and that will be my first stop. I put some top finish scrapings into a puddle of lacquer thinner and they didn't melt; my conclusion is that the finish ain't lacquer.

It plays beautifully. Godin did a really nice job on the neck, surprising me, considering that this is a very junior member of their catalog.

_________________
Peter Havriluk



These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post: Hesh (Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:39 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:45 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
More specific questions about finish repair:

I found a video of a Godin representative being interviewed at the 2013 NAMM show where he mentions a 'varnish' finish. Aha. Onto something. I've purchased some Minwax wipe-on varnish to get some finish onto the spliced in new wood.

Would it be a valid idea to first coat the repair with shellac and lay the varnish atop the shellac? Or go straight to the varnish for the repaired area? The region in question is the top, I'll seal up the two cracks in the side and call that part done.

I am not expecting invisible repairs, just neatness.

Thanks, folks.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:21 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 139
First name: Chris
Last Name: Reed
City: Stowmarket
State: Suffolk
Zip/Postal Code: IP14 2EX
Country: UK
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
A wiped on coat of clear shellac might be good to prevent uneven absorption of the varnish (and thus a blotchy appearance). But those who know this varnish might say don't bother, wait to see if you get better informed views.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seagull necks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks.

Such were my thoughts, but they were based on 'common sense' and not information. We'll see if more specific advice appears.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: reply from Godin
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:06 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 137
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Your guitar has a nitro based french polish finish.
We definitely don't recommend touch up jobs as they most ofter end up looking worst than the scratches!
You could have the top sanded down and refinished by a luthier, but that's quite costly and it could alter the guitar's tone. It's therefore not recommended.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com