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 Post subject: Refretting a 65 Mustang
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Walnut
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Doing a refret on a 65 Fender Mustang! So, I know these babies were sideloaded at the factory, so naturally, I will be side-un-loading them, but the thing I'm on the fence about is whether to press them back in from the top with the tools i already have or should i come up with a device to side load them again, or perhaps a combination of both. Another question, to glue or not glue? I really dont want to end up with CA glue to clean up on the lacquer or the rosewood, i'm trying to keep everything but the frets and the nut looking untouched. I'll get some pics up soon, it's a sweet little piece of history. Also, I'm aware these necks were intended to be replaced and not refretted, but it's up to the customer on this one, and he wants to keep the original neck...plus i'm giving him a sweeeet deal on the job. thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Remove sideways and replace conventionally and glue.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:58 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Fish glue is a good choice, long open time and easy to clean up. Titebond is another good choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Mahogany
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I've heard the term, side loading, and kinda sorta understand the process Can anyone expand on how and why it is done and what is the best technique for removing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Here's something that Dave Collins put together and put on our Facebook page. Click on the first pic to begin the sequential pics and narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/a2guitars/photos/?tab=album&album_id=100770106696751

Two really important points:

1) Remove in the direction that they were inserted from or, in other words remove toward the treble side of a right handed neck.

2) Be gentle.... or you will be repairing chips.

3) Note the fret ends on the newly installed frets. You won't see the radical bevel that bothers many better players and will instead see a nicely shaped and polished fret end that preserves the fret top surface.

That was three so call this bonus Thursday...;)

Let's go for four:

4) After all frets are removed clean out the slots well and be sure to use frets with a tang that fits snug but not too snug since we are going to use glue, we use super fresh CA wicked into a waxed board.... and then clamped with Jaws II and accelerated. The wax permits easy clean-up of excess glue.

But the reason why you want the slots cleaned out and the tang to fit well but not too well is these things have single action rods only.... If you induce too much back bow from fret compression you will be SOL and have a neck that is in permanent back bow and buzzes out.... Not good. If you keep an eye on any developing back bow during fretting you can see if you are using tangs that are too large for the slots or not.

These are obviously not the easiest refrets and have non-standard removals, lots of possibility for damage in the removal process and dang near need compression fretting because of the one-way rods and how critical it is to not induce permanent back bow.

With that said what I always do when it's a more difficult job....... charge more and take Imodium AD. :? :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:42 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Chris Ide wrote:
I've heard the term, side loading, and kinda sorta understand the process Can anyone expand on how and why it is done and what is the best technique for removing.


Hi Chris:

As to why frets were installed sideways Leo was a master of manufacturability from his use of standard sizes of lumber for necks to side loading frets everything was process designed and controlled to permit less expensive, working musician's instruments to be produced at price points that would work for working musicians. Until the Asian imports no one did this better than Leo.

Sadly though it could be said that Leo, RIP went ugly early.... and started producing designs that were not indicative of a complete or deep understanding of guitar physics or physics on planet earth in general. Not being critical just discussing some historical design issues with Fender products.

Leo's use of standard, inexpensive lumber for say necks permitted inexpensive necks to be produced but not enough break angle particularly on the G strings. This lack of enough break angle was later addressed with a second string tree or newer tuners with short posts. You can augment the need for this with older Fenders by using nearly the entire G string when winding on the post. This sends the winds, many of them all the way to the tuner post bottom increasing break angle. That's a pro trick by the way that once learned most never stop doing it.....

Tele bridges are compromises where one saddle for two strings requires that someone be off a bit....

Trems that lock on Jazzmasters and similar instruments and the Mustang trems suck.... and even though all trems basically have issues these have more issues than others. The entire arrangement also has too little break angle for heavy handed players.

There is a reason why after market bridges such as the Mastery bridge can get hundreds of dollars from Fender owners. The original Fender bridges suck.....

The bolt on neck is brilliant from a manufacturing stand point but also is plagued with a ski ramp or kick up at the body end where it bolts on.... This prevents lower action and requires the instruments to have some fret work, at least a fret dress in a few years as the ski ramp develops.

OTOH Leo helped to bring us Jimi and Eric and so very much of the music that I just could never get past or over. To this day I'm listening to Hey Joe, Layla, Sunshine of Your Love, and Crossroads from Wheels of Fire nearly daily. Purple Haze gets played on every instrument that I finish setting up. Ever hear Purple Haze on a pre-war Martin.... :) In large part we have Leo to thank for this AND his ability to produce working musician instruments that were and remain world-class.

Guitars are ultimately tools for musicians..... and Leo understood this and produced products, great products that met this demand and empowered the greats of our time to move heaven and earth with some of the finest music ever produced. Hat's off to Leo!



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): pat macaluso (Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:09 am) • dpetrzelka (Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:06 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:25 am 
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Walnut
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Thanks for the link and all the info Hesh. I got StewMac Medium/Medium mainly because its recommended on their site for refretting fenders, I believe all StewMac fret tangs are .023" thick, I guess we'll see how that goes. I like the waxed board idea, I think I have some beeswax laying around. Could you explain the gluing procedure you would use with this a little more in depth? What I'm getting is- install fret in clean slot w/compression(fret press caul, Jaws or JawsII, or other clamping device/jig, NOT a dead blow hammer and a shotbag!) apply wax around edges and ends of fret, wick in thin CA glue from both sides, hit with accelerator, remove wax. And as I seem to remember from the last time I got candle wax on my computer screen, olive oil solves candlewax pretty well, so maybe fretboard oil will solve beeswax? I guess have some pre-flight testing to do. Thanks to all who replied!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:03 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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HappyAccidents wrote:
Thanks for the link and all the info Hesh. I got StewMac Medium/Medium mainly because its recommended on their site for refretting fenders, I believe all StewMac fret tangs are .023" thick, I guess we'll see how that goes. I like the waxed board idea, I think I have some beeswax laying around. Could you explain the gluing procedure you would use with this a little more in depth? What I'm getting is- install fret in clean slot w/compression(fret press caul, Jaws or JawsII, or other clamping device/jig, NOT a dead blow hammer and a shotbag!) apply wax around edges and ends of fret, wick in thin CA glue from both sides, hit with accelerator, remove wax. And as I seem to remember from the last time I got candle wax on my computer screen, olive oil solves candlewax pretty well, so maybe fretboard oil will solve beeswax? I guess have some pre-flight testing to do. Thanks to all who replied!


Sure and happy to help. You have your process well thought out as I can see in your reply above.

We of course remove the necks on Fenders for easier handling and to protect the body.

The Jaws II tool and our caul sets (we had them custom made for us and now they are available from Birkonium for sale to other Luthiers). So we press frets and when it's time to glue we wax the board and are now using Howard's Feed-n-wax in a thinly applied layer. A thin bead of very thin and fresh CA is applied next to one side only of the fret (you can often see it wick under and then up the other side) and then the excess is wiped off with one swipe of a paper towel. The Jaws II tool is immediately clamped down and then we accelerate in the direction of the last fret completed so as to not contaminate the next fret that we want to do with accelerator. It goes fast once you get into it. Micro pipettes are very useful for this and you want minimal glue especially on a lacquered board.

We hammer when we need to but greatly prefer the Jaws II tool because we can use it to clamp frets for gluing, you can't do that with a hammer....

Just pay some attention to how the frets are going in. If there is any real resistance at all it could result in back bow.... not good. We use the Stew-Mac little two blade fret slot saw to clean out slots and widen them a bit for better tang fit when necessary.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 am 
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Koa
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Wax you say, hmmm... Brilliant!

So, if I'm understanding right, you have applied a quick coat of Howard's Feed-n-wax to the whole fretboard just prior to installing your frets. Then you press the frets in, run a bead of water thin CA along one edge, wipe with a cloth. Hit with accelerator while the press is pressing. I'm guessing that a thin coat of Feed-n-wax is enough to ensure the CA cleans off the surface with a wipe of a paper towel.

Simple enough for even me to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:18 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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rlrhett wrote:
Wax you say, hmmm... Brilliant!

So, if I'm understanding right, you have applied a quick coat of Howard's Feed-n-wax to the whole fretboard just prior to installing your frets. Then you press the frets in, run a bead of water thin CA along one edge, wipe with a cloth. Hit with accelerator while the press is pressing. I'm guessing that a thin coat of Feed-n-wax is enough to ensure the CA cleans off the surface with a wipe of a paper towel.

Simple enough for even me to do.


And me too ;) Yep you've got it! Works like a charm provided that you don't let CA drip down the side of the neck and not notice it until the next day..... :? It wet sands off but I actually did this and it ruined my day....

Basically this is easy enough that even a Hesh can do it.... :D Just remember when spraying accelerator to spray in the direction that you've been not where you are going or the CA bead on the next fret will flash off at once.

One more tip when using the Jaws II tool to clamp frets use one caul size with a tighter radius than the board so that there is concentrated pressure on the fret ends too. It helps ensure that the ends, especially when the tang has been removed for say a bound neck, are down and glued down.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Contributing Member
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So, wax before fretting or after fretting?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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pat macaluso wrote:
So, wax before fretting or after fretting?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Fret first and then wax just before using the Jaws II and thin CA to glue. We want the thin CA to wick into the fret slot from one side and migrate to the other side. Wipe (I only need to wipe the CA up on the application side) and accelerate in the direction of the last fret glued. When you do this you will see the bead form and then sink under the fret right before your eyes.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: pat macaluso (Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:19 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I'll add before asked that we find that thin, quality CA releases fine come refret time with heat AND if anything strengthens the fret slots likely preventing future chipping to some degree again during a future refret. In fact in my experience thin CA cleans out of fret slots easier than any other glue that I've encountered, Titebond, HHG, Fish, and the dreaded.... ep*xy..... This is likely because less is required to bond to the fret.

We have a number of clients who are pros and we have refretted their instruments multiple times now INCLUDING.... with stainless. Yep we have more than one client who wears out stainless in 6 months time..... What a death grip....


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