Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail gap

I believe you are going to find the neck is set with dowels. Easiest thing to do in that case is convert to a bolt on.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Ryan!

I believe you are going to find the neck is set with dowels. Easiest thing to do in that case is convert to a bolt on.

are your nerves made of steel? If so then maybe this trick will work. Last time I removed a dowelled butt joint with AMG I used one of those handheld oscillating saws. You will lose the kerf of the blade, but it didn't affect my intonation enough that I could detect. You would have the same thing, maybe even more kerf loss, with a Japanese pull saw.
I converted it to a bolt on and after a little finish touch up the customer was extremely happy. I'm glad he was because I thought it could have been better. :oops:

Okay Jeffery, You have my attention. Just how high is "waaaaaaaaaaaaaay high?"
Would a common hairdryer put out enough heat to do this job? That's what I use to remove bridges, fretboards, pickguards, pretty much everything.
and since most of these asian beauties have the neck fused to the body with a rock hard finish, do you cut the finish before you start heating, or do you just put the gun on it and let it go to work?

No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint.

That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer?

SteveSmith wrote:

No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint.

That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer?

Me too , Im glad we started this subforum [:Y:]

Author:	Todd Rose [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail gap
I'm doing a dovetail neck reset for the first time, on a 1970s Vega Dread (a guitar I picked up to learn this on). I pulled the 15th fret and drilled down through, but I can't find the gap in the dovetail joint to inject steam into. I've drilled 4 holes at various angles, but no luck. Has this ever happened to any of you? Any suggestions for how to proceed? This guitar was made during a period when Martin owned Vega. The guitar seems to be made just like a Martin D in every respect. I am assuming, on that basis, that it has a typical dovetail joint. I did not expect to have this problem. Thanks!

Author:	tbluthier [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Take a look here: http://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/v ... neck-joint

Author:	Todd Rose [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Thanks, John. I wouldn't think a 1970s dreadnought guitar made in a factory overseen by Martin would have a joint like that much older Vega, but I suppose it's possible. Unless anybody has any wisdom on how to steam this joint apart given my lack of success in finding the gap in the joint, it seems I might have no choice but to cut off the fretboard extension to find out what's under there. I suppose I could just try injecting steam into the 4 holes I've made and see if that gets me anywhere... seems unlikely that would work, though, since all four holes appear to have gone into solid wood. Maybe the gap is just extremely small??

Author:	B. Howard [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
I believe you are going to find the neck is set with dowels. Easiest thing to do in that case is convert to a bolt on.

Author:	tbluthier [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
I didn't notice the 1970's. I just remembered seeing that link a while back.

Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail gap http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=40895	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Todd Rose [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
B. Howard wrote: I believe you are going to find the neck is set with dowels. Easiest thing to do in that case is convert to a bolt on. Thanks, Brian. Interesting. I'm asking around some more to see if I can confirm the kind of neck joint this has. I'll report back if I learn anything new.

Author:	Ryan Mazzocco [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
I did the same thing on a mid 70s model Alvarez one time. I learned a valuable lesson that I think you are about to learn. I, like you, drilled through the 15th slot and found nothing. I drilled a few more holes at different angles to see if I could find it anywhere. I figured it had to be in there, I just couldn't feel it, so I started steaming. The neck joint never budged, but the headblock started to come loose, the binding/perfling started to come loose, but the neck joint was still hard as a rock. I sawed off the fretboard extension to find a VERY shallow dovetail joint. It only came into the body about 5/16" or so. so I was just drilling into solid wood, the steam was soaking the wood and going everywhere. Since I could see the joint now, I drilled directly into the joint and pumped more steam in (after I let it dry out for a few days.) Still nothing. I eventually concluded that it must have been set with some sort of quick set epoxy and was never going to come off with steam, so I sawed it off and it's still waiting to become a bolt on when I get around to it. (but it has fallen way down on my list of things to do.) I learned though that you never know what you're going to find in there.

Author:	Todd Rose [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Thanks for sharing your experience, Ryan!

Author:	Ryan Mazzocco [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Todd Rose wrote: Thanks for sharing your experience, Ryan! No problem. After re-reading it.. I'm not sure what I was trying to accomplish... You're obviously much more experienced. I think my point was that it was an unusual joint that I had never seen before, but somewhere I got carried away with the story.

Author:	Todd Rose [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
I do appreciate your post, Ryan. My experience with setting necks is mostly limited to my own guitars, on which I've done various configurations of bolt-on, and Taylors with the bolt-on-with-shims design. I know how to set a dovetail neck; my second guitar was built using Serge de Jonge's method of making a conventional dovetail joint, but securing the dovetail with a bolt rather than glue (which works really well, by the way). This is my first effort at steaming apart a neck joint. I need to get good at it so I can confidently do a neck reset on a customer's Martin.

Author:	Jeffrey L. Suits [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
B. Howard wrote: I believe you are going to find the neck is set with dowels. Easiest thing to do in that case is convert to a bolt on. ^^^^^^^^^^^Yup.

Author:	Todd Rose [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Thanks, Jeffrey! You're the first person I've heard from who has personally dealt with one of these Vega necks. So, an odd dowel joint it is. Dang. I would think it would be difficult to get enough heat into the joint applying a heat gun externally, without making an overheated mess of the lacquer. I'm impressed that you accomplished that. And I'm daunted to try it. But I guess I will, for lack of any better ideas. Actually, here's an idea: heat a metal block and apply it to the face of the neck block (through the soundhole). Maybe that would get heat into the joint as effectively as your heat gun method. It does introduce the risk of making the neck block come unglued from the sides, but, in that respect, it doesn't sound any more risky than heating the heel area with a heat gun from the outside. Although, if I mask the sides on each side of the heel with cardboard before applying heat to the heel with a heat gun... Just thinking out loud, here. I've already got the FB extension unglued. Sorry -- what's AMG? Thanks again.

Author:	Ryan Mazzocco [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
are your nerves made of steel? If so then maybe this trick will work. Last time I removed a dowelled butt joint with AMG I used one of those handheld oscillating saws. You will lose the kerf of the blade, but it didn't affect my intonation enough that I could detect. You would have the same thing, maybe even more kerf loss, with a Japanese pull saw. I converted it to a bolt on and after a little finish touch up the customer was extremely happy. I'm glad he was because I thought it could have been better.

Author:	Jeffrey L. Suits [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Sorry -- what's AMG?
That would be, "Asian Mystery Glue"! "I would think it would be difficult to get enough heat into the joint applying a heat gun externally, without making an overheated mess of the lacquer. I'm impressed that you accomplished that. And I'm daunted to try it. But I guess I will, for lack of any better ideas. " You'll be surprised at how easily that joint lets go!

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Author:	Ryan Mazzocco [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Okay Jeffery, You have my attention. Just how high is "waaaaaaaaaaaaaay high?" Would a common hairdryer put out enough heat to do this job? That's what I use to remove bridges, fretboards, pickguards, pretty much everything. and since most of these asian beauties have the neck fused to the body with a rock hard finish, do you cut the finish before you start heating, or do you just put the gun on it and let it go to work?

Author:	Jeffrey L. Suits [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Ryan Mazzocco wrote: Okay Jeffery, You have my attention. Just how high is "waaaaaaaaaaaaaay high?" Would a common hairdryer put out enough heat to do this job? That's what I use to remove bridges, fretboards, pickguards, pretty much everything. and since most of these asian beauties have the neck fused to the body with a rock hard finish, do you cut the finish before you start heating, or do you just put the gun on it and let it go to work? I've never checked the tuning at that point, I'm just deliberately overdoing it. I imagine a hairdryer will work, they're just lower-heatguns. Again, it's surprising how little it takes to get these joints to fail. The finish: that slathered-on 80s finish, means you have to cut all the way through it; if you try to get away with just scoring it, you end up with continent-sized chunks cracking off.

Author:	Todd Rose [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Got it apart. Did it with the strings off, just heating the heck out of the heel with the gun and muscling the joint apart with my hands. No damage to the lacquer. I see now that the FB extension didn't separate as cleanly as I would have liked, but it will be all right. Happy to have gotten this far with it. Now, I might be setting it aside for a while to work on other stuff, but I'll post more when I've made more progress.

Author:	B. Howard [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
Ahh...so it appears they finished the body prior to assembly on these. Will make a note of that. Thanks for posting.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint. That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer?

Author:	WudWerkr [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
SteveSmith wrote: No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint. That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer? Me too , Im glad we started this subforum

Author:	Todd Rose [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
SteveSmith wrote: No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint. That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer? I was surprised at how much heat I was able to apply to the heel with the heat gun without having any effect on the lacquer. The gun is variable, and I had it set at about 1/3. Still, that's pretty hot, and I had it cooking on that heel for a pretty long time -- not constantly on one spot, of course, and I closely monitored the lacquer as I worked -- taking breaks every now and then to rack the neck. Putting my hand in through the sound hole, I could feel a lot of heat coming through the wood in there. The glue was not very soft when the neck finally came off.

Author:	Jeffrey L. Suits [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Vega D Neck Reset, drilled 15th fret/can't find dovetail
WudWerkr wrote: SteveSmith wrote: No advice from me but I enjoy these threads. Looks like a standard furniture dowel joint. That looks like a fairly high-powered heat gun. How do you keep from messing up the lacquer? Me too , Im glad we started this subforum Yeah, and w/o any fanfare...