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Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10133&t=37353 |
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Author: | Robbie_McD [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Hey there Dave, that was intensely cool! The laser cutting of the top sandwich was amazing! Rob |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Hi Rob! Great to hear from you. I've got a couple of these experimental top guitars on the go at the moment - my ESJ1 with a thicker top, no braces, and no smooth bevel, and this challenge one, my ESJ2 with a thinner top (with just one center brace) with bigger hexagons cut out of the inner layer, and with the smooth bevel thingy. I think I could get enough strength with a thinner top (like the ESJ2) with no braces if I change the hexagon cut out pattern a bit....we'll see when I make ESJ3... I have no idea how these things are going to be sound-wise, but it's great fun experimenting with them, and the closed bodies sure tap (boing!) nicely! We'll know in a few weeks!! Stay tuned - I'm going to video the CNC'ing of this fretboard - it'll be my first one on my Shopbot, which I've had for over a year now, but which I'm still learning to use properly... Cheers for now, Dave F. |
Author: | WudWerkr [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
That is looking great Dave , wish I had a few of your toys I do seriously like the head stock . great design. BTW are you any relation to the great actor Barney Fifield ? JK ! |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Looks great. I'm a little disappointed at your lack of a laser guided dust collection system for the CNC, but I suppose I can let that slide since I don't even have a real shop and you have laser beams! |
Author: | PeterF [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Using hand tools to carve the neck? That's a little old fashioned isn't it! |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Tony_in_NYC wrote: Looks great. I'm a little disappointed at your lack of a laser guided dust collection system for the CNC, but I suppose I can let that slide since I don't even have a real shop and you have laser beams! Yeah, sorry about that! I'm working on an independent AI dust collection system based on a heavily modified Roomba robot with a laser guidance sub-system for bit avoidance, but progress is slow Until I get it working I'll have to rely on the Armstrong method (when I want to see where the bit is cutting) or the Shopbot's old-style (pedestrian) dust collecting shroud thingy..... Cheers, Dave F. |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Pedestrian indeed. I trust you will have something very advanced soon enough. Meantime, I'm still wedged in between a 1964.5 Mustang and a snowblower. Posted from the future using Tapatalk |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
PeterF wrote: Using hand tools to carve the neck? That's a little old fashioned isn't it! Yup, but I don't have time to develop a 3D CAD model of a neck and then work out all the tool paths for the CNC for this build. I will just about get time to do the CAD/CAM work for the bridge, but that's about it. I'm planning on building a proper spray booth the week of Thanksgiving, just in time to get this build finished and recorded by the end of Nov! Cheers for now, Dave F. |
Author: | Jaybird840 [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
She's a beaut, Dave! |
Author: | WudWerkr [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Excellent work . That one will be in the running for the prize for sure ! |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Well it sure looks good. As for your strength issue, how hard would it be to get a couple of braces in there with HHG? Once the glue tacks up, you wont need to clamp them so it seems the most likely choice of glue. I'm sure you have a flouroscope in the shop that you can use to x-ray the guitar as you fit the brace inside the box! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroscopy What? No flouroscope? Jeez Dave...I'm a bit disappointed at the low budget operation you are running! No laser guided dust collection for the CNC, no flouroscopy equipment. What's next? I bet you shaped the neck for this build with a rasp, didn't you? Seriously though, a couple of lengthwise braces a la an arch top might solve the problem, though they will change the sound a bit. |
Author: | WudWerkr [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
When you let the string tension off , did the top spring back ? I would restring with Nylon as a classical and see how the top reacts . If the top handles the Nylon , at least then you have a frame of reference that you can work from . Then again ........ what do I know . lol |
Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Well, like the others said, it sure looks good. A real shame about the strength issue but that's the way it goes some times with experiments. I'm in the middle of a bit of an experiment myself although I'm not stepping out near as far as you have As far as the bracing goes I think I would re-top it or pull the back with my preference being a re-top. I don't see how you could add any long-term bracing solution through the sound hole. Of course, that is just my opinion. |
Author: | PeterF [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
I know it is rather late to say this, but I would say the honeycomb core in the soundboard needs to be a lot thicker relative to the inner and outer skins. In my understanding, a core can only add stiffness by increasing the thickness relative to a solid skin, and not adding weight. (does that make sense? ) So the total skin thickness should be much thicker than a normal soundboard, but weigh less than a braced top. I have no idea how this would relate to the acoustic properties though. Looks great though! |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Flouroscope is now on my want list Tony! Quite a ways down though....might be a few years yet! I like your idea of using HHG - that would make gluing in some braces easier. I've got to decide whether to go with X braces, A braces, or one or two cross bars like on a classical.... Wud - yes, when I let the string tension off, the soundboard returned to the correct shape almost instantly. I like your idea of moving to nylon strings. I'm considering doing that along with adding just one cross brace under the soundhole (like on a classical). For grins I started putting a set of nylon strings on it tonight, but the nut buzzes and the action is too low. I'll have to make a new nut and re-jigger the saddle height too. Also, something is rattling inside the guitar when the low E is plucked....weird...maybe my single brace has come unglued? It may just be the loose nut (the one strumming it perhaps?)...tomorrow will tell. Steve - I'm going to see if I can come up with a solution that doesn't involve taking either the back or the soundboard off! If there's a way, I'll find it. If not, then I will take the back off and add bracing etc. to the soundboard from the back. Let's hope there's a solution for me..... Peter - the center honeycombed piece of spruce is much thicker than the two outside pieces already. I think I posted the exact dimensions earlier in my build log. You are correct though - the thicker the soundboard is, the stiffer it will be (stiffness goes up by the cube of the thickness, as we all know). I have another build (ESJ1) on the go at the moment too. The ESJ1 has a much thicker triple top sandwich with a stiffer center board. I'm going to finish building that one and see how it holds up to SS tension.....I'm fully prepared to rip the back off that one too and add braces if need be. Cheers for now, Dave F. |
Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
I have to back off on one comment - I had forgotten the amount of work that went into the top so would not want to re-top that. I would also pull the back if that was the last resort. |
Author: | WudWerkr [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Quote: Wud - yes, when I let the string tension off, the soundboard returned to the correct shape almost instantly. I like your idea of moving to nylon strings. I'm considering doing that along with adding just one cross brace under the soundhole (like on a classical). For grins I started putting a set of nylon strings on it tonight, but the nut buzzes and the action is too low. I'll have to make a new nut and re-jigger the saddle height too. Also, something is rattling inside the guitar when the low E is plucked....weird...maybe my single brace has come unglued? It may just be the loose nut (the one strumming it perhaps?)...tomorrow will tell. I know thats not what you set out to acomplish, but given the work you have in it , it would be an easy solution to a beautifull guitar . Lesson learned and move on . It would make a very Unique Classical and my gut says it would hold up. |
Author: | DennisK [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Props for having the guts to go through with an experiment like this Too bad you couldn't string it up before finish. That's one of the things I love about my current shellac style; I can string before I even do back binding, so it's not much trouble to pull the back if need be. I'd say try to glue a cross strut below the soundhole, with hide glue. Shouldn't be too difficult to hold it in there with your fingers for a few minutes until it gets started drying (do some dry runs, and then heat everything nice and warm so you have plenty of time to get the glue applied and get it positioned). My instinct says there's a good chance it will even handle steel strings ok after that. Cutting a huge hole in the top weakens it so much, and with that one brace focusing the bridge torque right at thee edge of the hole, it's not surprising that it started to cave. And once the forward end of the brace can't go down, the back end will probably stop coming up so hard and telegraphing, too. Probably don't need a brace above the soundhole, since you have those CF tubes to take the stress off that area. Another thing that makes a big difference is the string height above the top. I assume you're currently around 1/2"? If you drop that to 3/8" or even 1/4", there'd be a whole lot less torque on the bridge. Of course that does change the tone, and requires changing the neck angle, but something to consider going non-standard with on future experiments. My coral snake guitar (small classical, 11 1/3" lower bout, no fan braces) has the strings at 1/4", and is holding up just fine at about 7 months old now. Sounds great, too. Good luck, and never give up |
Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Oh nooooo! Bummer. Get a video quick for the competition and just call it as is Well, you do have till the end of December now. I can't imagine trying to brace the top from the inside but maybe you can pop the back off. |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dave's Daft Experimental ESJ-2 Build |
Dave Fifield wrote: Flouroscope is now on my want list Tony! Quite a ways down though....might be a few years yet! I like your idea of using HHG - that would make gluing in some braces easier. I've got to decide whether to go with X braces, A braces, or one or two cross bars like on a classical.... Dave F. They are great tools. From helping the doctor aim the needle for the steroid shots in my spine to taking a quick pic of my kid's leg when he broke it, they do it all. Now they can help you position braces! Perhaps an app is in order? I hear you know some people at Apple. |
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