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Round two Challenge rules
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10133&t=37193		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Phillip Patton [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Here are the rules for round two. These are still under discussion, so watch for changes between now and when the competition starts on August 1st.


( 1 ) Any stringed instrument you wish to build.

( 2 ) The price cap is $150.

( 3 ) Materials can be whatever you want, as long as you keep it under the price cap. Only include the price of materials and hardware (wood, tuners, etc). Do not count tools , molds , glue , tape , sandpaper, booze, bandaids, etc.

( 4 ) Must be Participating OLF member and throw your hat in the ring prior to end of July 2012.

( 5 ) Your instrument must be finished for judging by end of December 2012.

I also want to shorten the voting period to 2 weeks. So, the first two weeks of January will be for voting, and the winner will have the prize before Christmas.

( 7 ) Please provide good pictures for judging. If all you have is a cell phone camera, please have a friend with a real camera take pictures for you. If you don't have any friends, go ahead and use the cell phone. ;-)

It would be nice to take a high quality video of yourself or someone else playing the instrument. If you're camera shy, a sound clip will work, but we do need one or the other.

( 8 ) Judging will be done by OLF public vote and the one with most votes on January 14th wins.

( 9 ) This is all about having fun and being creative and resourceful with the tools and materials at your disposal. Although there is a prize for the "winner", it's not about beating everyone else. The prize exists to motivate everyone to do their best within the allotted time period (five months).

(10) The prize is going to be a brace carving chisel, made by yours truly out of damascus steel. I'll need some input on the best design for that kind of chisel.

Since I'm the sponsor, and providing the prize, I'll not be competing. But I will have a build thread for the aforementioned chisel, for your viewing pleasure. :-)

(11) It is a requirement that you post a thread so we can all follow your progress. It doesn't have to be extremely detailed, though I think we would all agree that those are the best. Take as many or as few pictures as you like. Item #7 applies here as well. Try to take good, in-focus pictures, in decent lighting.

(12) If you intend to participate, please post so in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37186&p=487146#p487146 but don't start your project until August 1st.

Have fun!
Author:  Phillip Patton [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
verhoevenc wrote:
So I just did up my price list and I'm REAL close... But will be over depending on some questions:
- does finish count as a material, or does it fall into the 'glue, tools, etc' bucket?
- what do you do for negligible stuff like plywood tail block, nut/saddle material I was given by a friend, bracing from a home depot red spruce 2x4 that was like 10' for a couple bucks..?
Chris


Hi Chris,
I would be inclined to say that the finish would count, since it's something you can touch on the finished instrument.

For the other stuff you mentioned, just count what you paid. If something was given to you, then it counts as $0.

Hope this helps, and I hope you can make it.

Looking forward to seeing what you all come up with! Just 4 days to go.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Don't ditch just from going a few bucks over! This thing's supposed to be fun, isn't it? No need for the rules to be THAT strict. Let the voters decide whether to ding you for a small infraction :)

That said, I did end up changing my project due to the price constraint. I was going to do an all curly walnut steel string, but it was looking to be at least $185 unless I really scrimped, like skipping the truss rod or using crap tuners during the contest and swapping out later, which would just be stupid.

Then I went to the local wood store to see if I could find some decent binding stock to save a few bucks there, and found a gorgeous piece of spalted maple, wide enough for a one-piece back on another guitar like my coral snake build. Oddly, it didn't inspire anything right off the bat, but I bought it anyway. After digging through my wood pile yesterday, I finally had a vision... and now I have to worry about the price of all the shell that's going to be on it laughing6-hehe

Fortunately being nylon strung, that means I don't need a truss rod and can use wood pegs, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to make it. Especially if I can manage to slice a top for it off of one of my bracewood billets from Shane, rather than using the $50 Italian top that I've been looking at.

Also, I can cut some binding strips from the spalted maple board to use on the walnut guitar, so I could possibly even do BOTH projects, if I use the cheap tuners and maybe scrimp on some other things. There's no rule against multiple entries, right?
Author:  charliewood [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
I realize that the rules are set for this challenge and Im not trying to muddy the waters - however I wanted to voice this opinion as I think it prolly limits the entries somewhat...
I posted this in the Phil damascus chisel build thread where it went over like a lead ballon- i.e. no response...

"Love the Shop Phillip!
I really really like Damascus too - it almost makes me wanna throw my hat in the ring - but the chances of me winning it would be very slim..
On future challenges mabye we should have a couple prizes, and different categories broken down into skill levels - assigned by instruments built -
like 1-10, 10-20, 20+
novice, intermediate, and professional skill levels
Cheers
Charliewood"

I think then there would be a realistic chance for novices and intermediate builders to actually compete and win ....
Otherwise how can a guy like me - 1-5 builds compete with a Howard Klepper, or Arnt.... or many many many other super talented and accomplished builders here.....???
Cheers
Cw
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
I don't think we have enough pros entering to warrant a separate division, but it would make some sense to do separate out beginners who are still in the stumbling around phase of the first few instruments, from the more experience folks who have their process more or less ironed out.

On the other hand, last time we barely had enough finishers to be a competition at all, and we have less entrants this time. You may as well throw your hat in regardless, since it's a lot of fun just building along with everyone, reading and posting progress updates :)
Author:  WudWerkr [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
charliewood wrote:
I realize that the rules are set for this challenge and Im not trying to muddy the waters - however I wanted to voice this opinion as I think it prolly limits the entries somewhat...
I posted this in the Phil damascus chisel build thread where it went over like a lead ballon- i.e. no response...

"Love the Shop Phillip!
I really really like Damascus too - it almost makes me wanna throw my hat in the ring - but the chances of me winning it would be very slim..
On future challenges mabye we should have a couple prizes, and different categories broken down into skill levels - assigned by instruments built -
like 1-10, 10-20, 20+
novice, intermediate, and professional skill levels
Cheers
Charliewood"

I think then there would be a realistic chance for novices and intermediate builders to actually compete and win ....
Otherwise how can a guy like me - 1-5 builds compete with a Howard Klepper, or Arnt.... or many many many other super talented and accomplished builders here.....???
Cheers
Cw


By doing the best you can . It is nice to know yhat you are prepared to sponser the 1st 2013 challenge though [:Y:]
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
I'm giving this a shot. I owe a uke to my cousin and need motivation to get it done.
I bought some Koa a while back that cost me $70 and yielded 5 full sets and three extra sides. There is more than enough wood to make a uke.
I got some free mahogany for braces that is plenty big enough to make a neck for a uke and I also have some other free wood I could use for braces and blocks and such so I guess my main concern is tuners.
dang you OLF Challenge 2012 part 2!!
I thought I was going to relax this fall!
So I suppose I'm building an all Koa ukulele. Possibly a spruce topped uke but time will tell.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Son of a bi....now my feelings are hurt Chris. Prior to your comment I was happily going through life thinking people cared. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Now I'm downright suicidal. Good going. I hope your proud of yourself.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
Son of a bi....now my feelings are hurt Chris. Prior to your comment I was happily going through life thinking people cared. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Now I'm downright suicidal. Good going. I hope your proud of yourself.


Tony, I would like to take a moment to tell you that I care. I would like to, but. . .
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Waaahhhhhhh!!!!
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
After reading several of the challenge posts, I'm wondering what I've got myself into. The challenges sound less like about building instruments and more about challenging each other to a duel. Maybe that's really where the Damascus steel comes in..... laughing6-hehe
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Clay S. wrote:
After reading several of the challenge posts, I'm wondering what I've got myself into. The challenges sound less like about building instruments and more about challenging each other to a duel. Maybe that's really where the Damascus steel comes in..... laughing6-hehe



Watch it Clay! You are inviting a very public taunting!
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
I'll be sure not to stand between Tony and Clay's general direction!
Author:  charliewood [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Charlie,
If the predominate reason to compete with many other people is to win, we've just put something together which guarantees that one person will be happy and everyone else will feel just like you are saying. So then what should we do? Maybe like I've seen some people do with young kids, "every body is a winner and there are no losers". I personally don't think that is real life, but each to his own.
I'm going to be happy whether I win or lose. In fact ... I can't win. I am co-building two guitars with Todd Stock. I told him today that, in the off chance that we win, the chisel goes to him - he's the zen tool meister, not me.
I'm here for the fun. For the learning. For the camaraderie. And for the spirit of self improvement that competition brings. I suppose we are all here for different reasons. Most of all, I was hoping there was a chance to compete directly with Costa Guitars - they make guitars that start at $30,000 each and go up from there. I wanted to show Tony that I can kick his NY butt and still have strings left over. I think my entry may have scared him off. Where you at, sucka?!
Filippo


I wasnt actually saying why dont we change the rules so I can win that chisel :twisted: - I was saying that mabye we should level the playing field so people of my skill level could actually have a chance of winning something... [:Y:] which is a bit different
Believe me even if it were broken down into categories I probably(certainly) wouldnt win anyway....
But mabye Tony would... or someone else...
If its all just fun and learning and trying really hard, and comraderie- why not eliminate that prize altogether.... and make it a friendly...
prolly because the incentive of getting a beyond fine woodworking tool for your efforts is even more fun - isnt that why a prize is offered....
personally I would be happy for anyone who wins that beauty of a chisel - Im sure its going to be a cherished tool for its new owner... whoever that might be

DennisK said
I don't think we have enough pros entering to warrant a separate division, but it would make some sense to do separate out beginners who are still in the stumbling around phase of the first few instruments, from the more experience folks who have their process more or less ironed out.
On the other hand, last time we barely had enough finishers to be a competition at all, and we have less entrants this time. You may as well throw your hat in regardless, since it's a lot of fun just building along with everyone, reading and posting progress updates

I prefaced my post by saying that mabye that is why there werent as many entries as there could be - because for a novice to have thier work directly compared to the work of someone of immense luthierie skills might be a bit embarassing...
competeing with thier own peers skill wise might make them a bit bolder....
Fillipo you and Todd are the folks of whom I speak when I talk about fantastic builders on this site... so you are on the other side of the fence when it comes to this question...
Besides it was just a suggestion - like Wud says when I offer the prizes I can dictate the rules -
Mabye I will sponsor the 2013 challenge - if I do then I will offer at least a couple prizes for luthiers of different skill levels... 1-10 builds & 10+
and try and give everyone competing a chance to win, not just the accomplished builders among us...
Dont mind me, as I certainly wasnt trying to cause dissention.... just create healthy competition..
Build On!!!
Cheers
Charlie
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Charlie,
If the predominate reason to compete with many other people is to win, we've just put something together which guarantees that one person will be happy and everyone else will feel just like you are saying. So then what should we do? Maybe like I've seen some people do with young kids, "every body is a winner and there are no losers". I personally don't think that is real life, but each to his own.

I'm going to be happy whether I win or lose. In fact ... I can't win. I am co-building two guitars with Todd Stock. I told him today that, in the off chance that we win, the chisel goes to him - he's the zen tool meister, not me.

I'm here for the fun. For the learning. For the camaraderie. And for the spirit of self improvement that competition brings. I suppose we are all here for different reasons. Most of all, I was hoping there was a chance to compete directly with Costa Guitars - they make guitars that start at $30,000 each and go up from there. I wanted to show Tony that I can kick his NY butt and still have strings left over. I think my entry may have scared him off. Where you at, sucka?!

Filippo


How did I miss this post? Silly Filippo, My guitars start at $150,000. A neck might be $30,000. Also, if you are going to quote Mr. T (sucka? pffft) I will quote Rocky when he taunted Clubber Lang, "Come on!! Is that all you got? You aint bad! You aint nuttin'!!"

And thus the trash talking kicks into high gear. Or maybe not. My retort was pretty weak. I better get the crack research team at Costa Guitars on this post haste.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
That really puts the cost in CostaGuitars!
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
All the coolest one percenters have a Costa. Mitt Romney has a dozen in an off shore storage unit. Oops. I've said too much!
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
That goes without saying. He wouldn't want to toughen up his baby soft fingertips!
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
I thought part of the Costa Guitars appeal was the super soft non-callous forming action. Or is that one of the $150,000 options?
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Tony wrote: "That goes without saying. He wouldn't want to toughen up his baby soft fingertips!"

Does he wear a Mitt when he's not in public? Is that how he got his nickname?
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Bryan Bear wrote:
I thought part of the Costa Guitars appeal was the super soft non-callous forming action. Or is that one of the $150,000 options?


Even the buttery soft action of a Costa is not low enough to prevent Mitt's mitts from getting tougher. Have you ever touched his hands? They make a baby's bottom feel like sandpaper. 80 grit!
His fingertips feel like the inside of your cheek only softer. All the one percenters have finger tips like that. It's freaky.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Clay S. wrote:
Tony wrote: "That goes without saying. He wouldn't want to toughen up his baby soft fingertips!"

Does he wear a Mitt when he's not in public? Is that how he got his nickname?


Yes and it's filled with the souls of the people he destroyed as a corporate raider.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
All the coolest one percenters have a Costa. Mitt Romney has a dozen in an off shore storage unit. Oops. I've said too much!
How much tax doesn't one pay for a dozen Costas? A nation wants to know! laughing6-hehe

Alex
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Round two Challenge rules
Mitt registered himself as a dealer in order to avoid the sales tax.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Round two Challenge rules
I heard he keeps them in the trunks of his wife's Cadillacs.
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