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Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)
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Author:  Jim Kirby [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Mine is going to be something I've been thinking about for a while - a fretless nylon string guitar. I'm not sure if I am going to set it up like a classical or a flamenco.

My original inspiration was the oud, but here is a good discussion of the guitar version:

http://classicalguitar.delcamp.net/view ... ess+guitar

Wood choices not made yet. I am going to use pegs (in keeping as much with the oud flavor as with flamenco, and I have a slightly oudish headstock in mind). I'm shooting for a price point of $50, not counting strings and probably nut and saddle. It does need to be a good fingerboard, though, as I'm guessing it actually takes a little more of a beating than one with frets does.

Author:  WudWerkr [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Sounds like a winner to me . [:Y:]

Author:  alan stassforth [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

That sounds like a very cool idea, Jim!
I pulled the frets out of electric I made,
and didn't like the fretless deal,
but, a nylon string would probably sound great.
Check out David Lindley playing the oud.

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

I'm struggling over how to go more local for a top. I have WRC tops that I've resawn from construction lumber - fit's the bill in terms of cost (and some very nice tops too), but not exactly mid-atlantic or northeast. Red Spruce is quasi-local, but not cheap of course. I've seen really nice hemlock standing in places like Longwood Gardens, but the Borgs around here seem to have a contractual obligation to only stock wood that has at least two knots/foot - I'm guessing loggers can't get their hands on much of anything worthwhile.

Author:  WudWerkr [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

[quote]I'm struggling over how to go more local for a top. I have WRC tops that I've resawn from construction lumber - fit's the bill in terms of cost (and some very nice tops too), but not exactly mid-atlantic or northeast.[quote]

Thats why i decided to go continential usa . To hard for some to get what they need in tighter regions.

Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Jim, are you going with a pickup on it? Without amplification they aren't far from the acoustic qualities of an electric guitar.

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Alexandru Marian wrote:
Jim, are you going with a pickup on it? Without amplification they aren't far from the acoustic qualities of an electric guitar.


Hi Alex,

Bridge placement and string height above soundboard at bridge aren't going to change relative to a regular classical or flamenco, so what will be different in terms of volume/efficiency?

Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

I've handled one guitar from which the owner pulled the frets and filled the slots. He tested it one hour then brought it here for a refret :) It didn't have sustain and the volume was greatly reduced. I noticed the same with my guitars where I would string it up before fretting out of unrestrained curiosity to hear how it sounds (I would use a filed-barbs fret to hear the upper trebles)
I guess you can make it and cut for frets later if you don't like it. It's not nearly as convenient as cutting them on the free FB but it can be done.

Author:  muskr@ [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Cool! Can't wait to see how this turns out [:Y:] .
You could cut fret slots and glue in contrasting veneer with hide glue (or another glue that can be undone) to make fret lines. That way if you decide you want frets you can take out the veneer and fret it. Just a thought...

Author:  DennisK [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Jim Kirby wrote:
Alexandru Marian wrote:
Jim, are you going with a pickup on it? Without amplification they aren't far from the acoustic qualities of an electric guitar.


Hi Alex,

Bridge placement and string height above soundboard at bridge aren't going to change relative to a regular classical or flamenco, so what will be different in terms of volume/efficiency?

The difference is that one end of the string is anchored by a soft fleshy finger, plus probably rattling against the fingerboard a bit, limiting the maximum amplitude. If I was going to do a fretless guitar, I'd at least make the action a lot higher so the string angles up from the fingerboard more sharply.

But in general, it seems like a pretty hopeless instrument design. Guitars are energy-challenged enough even with frets so there's not much lost from that end of the string. Works on violins because the bow is a continuous energy supply. Of course, plucking a violin does make a pretty cool sound, so maybe it's not entirely hopeless... but still a limited use instrument, not so good for soloing.

But another idea I've been pondering is a bowed guitar :) Or rather, a flat topped, glued bridge viola (I'd probably use normal viola strings on it). Of course, the challenge is to get enough clearance for the bow, without putting too much torque on the bridge. Tempting to do it instead of my planned harp ukulele for the build challenge.

Anyway, good luck on the build, hope it turns out satisfactory :)

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

OK, continuing on with this, how could the unfretted guitar possibly be less efficient than an oud, with its bridge placed far off of the vibrational center of the soundboard? They aren't as concert hall-filling as regular guitars, but they are certainly loud enough at close quarters.

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

DennisK wrote:

But another idea I've been pondering is a bowed guitar :) Or rather, a flat topped, glued bridge viola (I'd probably use normal viola strings on it). Of course, the challenge is to get enough clearance for the bow, without putting too much torque on the bridge. Tempting to do it instead of my planned harp ukulele for the build challenge.

Anyway, good luck on the build, hope it turns out satisfactory :)


You could still get the clearance with the big waist indentations as on regular bowed instruments. If you built an internal frame, maybe you could make the waist indents really extreme.

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

muskr@ wrote:
Cool! Can't wait to see how this turns out [:Y:] .
You could cut fret slots and glue in contrasting veneer with hide glue (or another glue that can be undone) to make fret lines. That way if you decide you want frets you can take out the veneer and fret it. Just a thought...


Or maybe teflon strips! Boy wouldn't that be lack of faith :shock:

Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Hey, it's nice to have some markers,
even on a fretless.
DAMHIKT.

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

PUNT!

This is an official punt announcement. Just picked up another outside job plus a few other priority things. Not going to get a voluntary guitar build worked on this spring.

Have fun!

Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Jim Kirby wrote:
PUNT!

This is an official punt announcement. Just picked up another outside job plus a few other priority things. Not going to get a voluntary guitar build worked on this spring.

Have fun!



wow7-eyes AWWWWWWWWWWW Darn . Well im sure it was needed . Im gonna keep your name on the list just in case things turn around . June 1st is a long way off . [:Y:]

Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Throwing in the towel? Already? laughing6-hehe

Shoot... Build a cigar box guitar or something really fun and quick...

I have this idea rolling around in the back of my brain for a "Properly built" cigar box guitar... Something worthwhile to play both sound and volume wise.... that doesn't sound like a wet 2x4 with a couple pieces of rusty fence wire nailed to it....

Thanks

Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

truckjohn wrote:
Throwing in the towel? Already? laughing6-hehe

Shoot... Build a cigar box guitar or something really fun and quick...

I have this idea rolling around in the back of my brain for a "Properly built" cigar box guitar... Something worthwhile to play both sound and volume wise.... that doesn't sound like a wet 2x4 with a couple pieces of rusty fence wire nailed to it....

Thanks


Nah, way too much going on - I have two classicals in the works that are already spoken for, and just started a real flamenco (i.e., with frets [:Y:] ) and have to finish everything by the end of April, when I leave for Spain for 2+ months (so June 1 didn't help anyway.)

Now, maybe if it were washtub bass? I could probably manage one string and no woodworking :lol:

Author:  WudWerkr [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jim Kirby build - fretless classical (or flamenco)

Quote:
Now, maybe if it were washtub bass? I could probably manage one string and no woodworking laughing6-hehe


But could you do it for under $150 ? laughing6-hehe

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