Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:48 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:46 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
New to the forum here! Glad to be part of this community. About a year ago I finally put together a kit from the now defunct “GuitarKitsUSA” site. They specialized in recreations of the fiberglass (or res-o-glass) guitar bodies. My plan was to recreate the JB Hutto Jetson style Airline guitar. The same that Jack White played during the White Stripes. When I built the guitar it was my first wiring job. The pickups were original 1960’s Valco pickups. The same used in the original Airline guitars. Since I didn’t know much about wiring, and because this was a personal project to recreate Jack Whites signature guitar, I wired it EVH style. Pickup to volume with no tone. I did it this way because for a good 3 years Jack Whites Airline was wired the same. This leads me to my question for you guys. What volume pots were used in the original Airline/Valco/Supro guitars (250k, 500k, 1M)? I have read online that 1M was what was used, but I have also read that they used standard 250k. I know that the Valco pickups are single coil, but I also know that they run pretty hot as well. The reason I have this question is because it seems that my guitar is pretty dark/bassy. I used a 250k pot, but if Valco used 1M then maybe the treble is being severely cut by the pot. But I’m not sure. Hopefully you guys can help me out a bit.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:39 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Cool project and welcome to the OLF JP.

I don't have any answers for you and wanted to suggest that answers may not be available here either. Most of what is discussed here are acoustic guitars.

WIth this said I will be surprised if anyone has the answers that you are looking for and is this knowledgable about these.

If it were me I would simply try the other pots and see what results. Pots are cheap if you don't run into the current supply chain issues and then answers will be available you as fast as you can solder.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:42 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Wanted to mention as well and no offense intended the solder joints in your pic look cold to me and not as if the materials were hot enough to permit the solder to "flow out." Might be worth redoing with nice, shiny solder joints first to make sure that what you have now pot wise is not correct for your purposes but the solder joints needed attention.

Pots require a pretty decent and powerful soldering iron to solder well.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:41 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
Wanted to mention as well and no offense intended the solder joints in your pic look cold to me and not as if the materials were hot enough to permit the solder to "flow out." Might be worth redoing with nice, shiny solder joints first to make sure that what you have now pot wise is not correct for your purposes but the solder joints needed attention.

Pots require a pretty decent and powerful soldering iron to solder well.


Yeah, I realize that I am not good a soldering at all. I can’t seem to keep the solder from burning I guess? I really struggled with it. I have just a cheap iron from harbor freight and it always seems to start off well, but then gets too hot and starts to burn. Or at least that’s what it seems is happening. I plan on replacing the pot and working on getting the joints better, but I’m not sure what is causing the problem. Maybe I need to unplug the iron between joints. I never blew on them or anything.



These users thanked the author jphfanedits for the post: Hesh (Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:03 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:25 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 853
Location: Cowichan Valley, BC, Canada
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Semi-pro
Are you using 60/40 solder? I'm in Canada, and all the solder sold in stores here is now lead free. I've found it to be a lot harder to use, so I've ordered the 60/40 stuff online, and it makes things a lot easier.

I also don't have an answer for you regarding the original pots. A 1 meg pot would definitely get you into a much brighter zone though. I've got a Jazzmaster, which uses 1 meg pots in one of the circuits. It's cool. Just thinking about the White Stripes albums through this lens, I bet that nasty (read cool) tone of his has those 1 meg pots at least partially to blame.



These users thanked the author Conor_Searl for the post: Hesh (Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:03 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:05 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Understand JP. Any chance you can replace that soldering iron with a better one and Connor is right lead free solder sucks ass and I won't touch it. Besides the leaded stuff can be like male birth control :) Kidding of course, kind of... :)

I jsut finished building three 50's tube amps and went with 60/40 solder and a Haaco soldering station and it was a dream to use and much fun.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:48 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
This is the solder I just purchased.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... ries/24636

I ended up just getting a 1Meg pot. Hopefully I can do a better job. I may even strip the wires from the pickup just so I have fresh wires to work with. I tend to over do things so it’s possible I just tried to use too much solder the first time. I’m sure it doesn’t help that I am using .5 solder. So it is rather small for used with small electronics. So there may be another reason it’s getting burnt.



These users thanked the author jphfanedits for the post: Hesh (Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:07 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:41 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2952
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Most solder irons have no heat controls so they just keep getting hotter and hotter until they start burning the flux inside the solder. Better irons have a thermostatic control to keep an ideal temperature.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: Hesh (Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:05 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:59 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5356
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I am fortunate that my shop partner for many years was a genius at electronics. You do NOT want me waving a soldering iron around when working on your axe. I am terrible at it, and the fumes make me sick.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince



These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: Hesh (Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:05 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:09 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
jphfanedits wrote:
This is the solder I just purchased.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... ries/24636

I ended up just getting a 1Meg pot. Hopefully I can do a better job. I may even strip the wires from the pickup just so I have fresh wires to work with. I tend to over do things so it’s possible I just tried to use too much solder the first time. I’m sure it doesn’t help that I am using .5 solder. So it is rather small for used with small electronics. So there may be another reason it’s getting burnt.


Don't know about this solder I never used it. I like Kester in the same ratio of tin to lead and just went to Amazon to get you a link but they are out of it. Supply chain problems.... still.

Soldering is an art and you have to carefully not to ruin it heat up the work before applying the solder and the goal is to get it to flow out.

Stewart MacDonald (link at top of page) offers amp kits and the excellent instructions also have a great 5 minute read on how to solder with pics if I remember correctly. The amp instructions are free to download without having to purchase the amp or anything else. Might be a good place to start JP.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:12 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
PS: Jack is a very nice guy by the way I've met him. What a player too eh!

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:20 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 853
Location: Cowichan Valley, BC, Canada
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Semi-pro
Tinning the wires you want to solder is a game changer too. I always heat whatever wire I will be soldering with my iron and let some of my solder flow into the wire. Along with tinning the wires, I'll let a small bit of solder pool on the back of the pot housing for ground wires, and heat the lugs of the pot and flow solder into the eye of the lug. This makes connecting parts so much easier.



These users thanked the author Conor_Searl for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:02 am) • Barry Daniels (Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:44 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:02 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Conor_Searl wrote:
Tinning the wires you want to solder is a game changer too. I always heat whatever wire I will be soldering with my iron and let some of my solder flow into the wire. Along with tinning the wires, I'll let a small bit of solder pool on the back of the pot housing for ground wires, and heat the lugs of the pot and flow solder into the eye of the lug. This makes connecting parts so much easier.


Good stuff Connor. I never thought of tinning the pot lugs too until I read it recently and tried it, much easier!

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:09 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 6770
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Tinning both parts of the connection helps a lot, if you can. If not, at least tin the wires. Another thing that helps a lot is to use flux, I like to put just a small drop of the liquid flux on the joint after it's tinned before you heat it. If you have to reheat it then put some more flux on it, flux burns off pretty quickly. Quality solder and flux are important but unfortunately a lot of these have become quite expensive over the years primarily due to stricter environmental controls.

Stay away from lead free solder. We had to use that for our manufacturing and it is much harder to use properly.

I like the liquid flux but you can also get paste flux. Be sure that the flux is suitable for leaded solder. Make sure it is a quality brand or from a quality source - if DigIKey, Mouser or Technitool sell it then it's probably good stuff. You might want to look for a more consumer friendly place to buy it after you figure out what you want.

I use Kester 66/44 (60/40 is good too) regular temp rosin core 0.031" solder for most things.

Here's the liquid flux I use (or search on Amazon for Kester 1544):
https://www.amazon.com/Kester-Rosin-Soldering-Bottle-TekLine/dp/B07K4F6SDM/ref=asc_df_B07K4F6SDM/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416743149271&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8424882632025520722&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9013381&hvtargid=pla-883221876855&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=93604199893&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416743149271&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8424882632025520722&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9013381&hvtargid=pla-883221876855

Just FYI, I did this for a living for 35 years.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"



These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Hesh (Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:15 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:54 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Austin, Texas
First name: Dan
Last Name: Smith
City: Round Rock
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 78681
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I believe the 1M ohm pots would produce a brighter sound.

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah



These users thanked the author dzsmith for the post: Hesh (Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:15 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:14 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Thanks so much guys! I really appreciate the help. Looks like I will be purchasing a new solder iron with a temp control. My cheap one doesn’t have any controls. I may also get me some new solder as well. I think for sure there are 1M pots in Jack’s Airline too. I have noticed when he plays some songs (specifically “Big 3 Killed My Baby”) he rakes his pick across the strings on the opposite side of the bridge, giving a distinct “plink” sound that rings out. I think it’s because the 1M pots are allowing the high pitch sounds to come through. But I could be 100% wrong (;



These users thanked the author jphfanedits for the post: Hesh (Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:16 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:23 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2952
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Here is the solder iron I bought. It works great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006MQD7M4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:34 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
I like a big-arse paddle tip on my Haaco and that with the greater surface area to transfer heat does pots great.

JP one of the reasons why pots really should have the right soldering iron, powerful enough and able to maintain a temp even when in contact with the work piece is that pots can be damaged fairly easily from over heating them or undercoating them for a duration that is punishing too from an under powered iron.

My business partner's soldering station cost us about $600 IIRC he's really into it. Me I have a $129 Haaco and it works great for me.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:07 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12081
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Just wanted to reiterate that there are long lead times now on quality solder lots of places such as Amazon so time to be a boy scout and be prepared planning in advance.

I've got another amp project to do so I am ordering my solder now so I have it by summer..... Sucks I know.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:31 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Okay so, new problem! I got a new 1M pot and wired it up. I was able to keep the solder mic and shiny. However, a once I went to test it, there is sound when the pot is turned all the way down. When I turn it up, it does get louder. But it only turns the sound down to about half way. I think I may have over heated the pot’s ground lug. I originally ran a bit of wire from the lug to the bottom of the pot, but then changed it to see if that was the issue and it’s still not turning the sound down all the way. I have already ordered 2 more pots to see if that is the issue. I don’t have a multimeter to test anything.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:37 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 am
Posts: 6
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
I forgot to add the picture:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 6770
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
You can get a usable multimeter for under $15. If you are going to work on guitar electrical components then a multimeter is an essential tool.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com