Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:47 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:53 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Will this work?

I want to make a telecaster butterscotch blonde but like African mahogany. I was thinking of using an A/B wood bleach to lighten the wood, then use a shellac based grain filler, then use an analine dye (yellow with a slight amber tint) and then cover with nitrocellulose lacquer.

I’m guessing the wood bleach will get the mahogany light enough for the dye to work. Not sure how the shellac takes dyes. I have some Zinsser Seal Coat shellac for the grain filler.

I also don’t know how nitro will take to the dye and shellac.

Any thoughts?

Am I making this too complicated?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:24 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 668
Location: Cowichan Valley, BC, Canada
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Semi-pro
I'm not sure how the bleach will work, but what about going with a different wood that is more the color you're going for? "Korina" or "White Limba" (the same thing) is pretty close to yellow, it's also a really open grained wood and feels like mahogany, so you'd still get similar aesthetic qualities.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:05 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2654
Location: United States
Keith,
I've bleached some visual defects out of mahogany before using wood bleach. If I remember right (it's been a while) it comes out on the pink-ish side. but should work with multiple applications. Check on scrap.
Shellac will will take dyes just fine as long and there are no compatibility issues between shellac and nitro.
Planing on filling the grain with just shellac is bad idea however, use a grain filler.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:33 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Conor_Searl wrote:
I'm not sure how the bleach will work, but what about going with a different wood that is more the color you're going for? "Korina" or "White Limba" (the same thing) is pretty close to yellow, it's also a really open grained wood and feels like mahogany, so you'd still get similar aesthetic qualities.


Well I have a wide 8/4 mahogany board that I can probably squeeze 2 guitar bodies out of pretty easily (unless one of them is a Gibson Explorer or something) but could check on korina if it’s available. I go to lumber yards for it so it’s less expensive than getting a guitar blank. Plus, if there’s any mistake on a guitar blank, I have to reorder it. If I have the lumber at home, I just start over. But I’m heading to one of my yards on Friday and korina is a good suggestion so I’ll see if they have any suitable pieces.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:37 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Jim Watts wrote:
Keith,
I've bleached some visual defects out of mahogany before using wood bleach. If I remember right (it's been a while) it comes out on the pink-ish side. but should work with multiple applications. Check on scrap.
Shellac will will take dyes just fine as long and there are no compatibility issues between shellac and nitro.
Planing on filling the grain with just shellac is bad idea however, use a grain filler.


You’re probably right re: filler vs shellac.

The A/B bleaches are not regular household bleach. Not sure which type you’ve used but I’m for sure going to test it out before deciding. I’ve seen some info on it showing the wood going to a nearly white color like ash but in YouTube and photos it’s pretty tough to know what the “real” color is and pink might screw up the butterscotch :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:23 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2654
Location: United States
I used a 2 part oxalic acid wood bleach, but I wasn't trying to take all the color out, just trying to lighten up an area and blend it in color-wise into the surrounding wood, which I was able to do with a careful application of stain.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:37 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 4355
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
True bleach often yellows the wood. I've used 2 part hydrogen peroxide wood bleach to good effect, and also oxalic acid crystals. You have to be sure to neutralize your bleach afterwards.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:20 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
By the way, how is it that people on this forum know my first name? Is that public somewhere?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:08 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:17 am
Posts: 886
Location: United States
City: Tyler
State: Texas
Your profile is on the left panel on every post you make Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:47 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Glen H wrote:
Your profile is on the left panel on every post you make Keith


I guess I don’t see that on mobile but it certainly explains how everyone knows my name. Haha!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:56 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1838
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Keith, aka Digelectric, I understand what you want to do and kind of why you want to do it (you've got a lot of mahogany....) but let me again ask why. I love mahogany, build most of my guitars out of it including my personal tele clone, and I go thru all sorts of effort when I finish them to bring out the very best in the wood.

You want to finish in a color that has been kind of a moving target for a lot of years - Erlewine has something like a dozen pages in his book on how Fender might have got their different blond colors. It sounds like a lot of work but if that is really what you want, why not start with a wood that will make it easier and save your mahogany stash for something else. Sticker it away in your basement, someday you will have a beautiful flamed top that just calls out for a mahogany body or the price will have gone up and you will say to your self "I'm sure glad I have that old hog"

If I can't talk you out of it, at least practice on some scrap until you get to the point where you have it completely nailed. It sounds like you will have enough fun just chasing after the blond.

Edit to add, I have never done a butterscotch blond but you might want to read Dan's description - he gives the Ducco part numbers of all the various primers, fillers, sealer and gloss materials from Fender's old recipes. He also gives some more modern "E-Z-Make blond" formulations.


Last edited by Freeman on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:06 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Freeman wrote:
Digelectric, aka Keith, I understand what you want to do and kind of why you want to do it (you've got a lot of mahogany....) but let me again ask why. I love mahogany, build most of my guitars out of it including my personal tele clone, and I go thru all sorts of effort when I finish them to bring out the very best in the wood.

You want to finish in a color that has been kind of a moving target for a lot of years - Erlewine has something like a dozen pages in his book on how Fender might have got their different blond colors. It sounds like a lot of work but if that is really what you want, why not start with a wood that will make it easier and save your mahogany stash for something else. Sticker it away in your basement, someday you will have a beautiful flamed top that just calls out for a mahogany body or the price will have gone up and you will say to your self "I'm sure glad I have that old hog"

If I can't talk you out of it, at least practice on some scrap until you get to the point where you have it completely nailed. It sounds like you will have enough fun just chasing after the blond.


Ok freeman (aka I have no idea because I’m on Tapatalk) I get your drift for sure and you could be right. Maybe I’ll try a couple of things to see how it goes.

I’m also thinking of using translucent white and painting over with butterscotch from ReRanch. I think the white is called Mary Kay.

Or maybe bleach then paint trans white then paint butterscotch.

I will try it on a test piece of my mahogany.

If I strike out I may try a different wood. But I really like mahogany bodies. And when I double checked my stock I have 10’ of 13” wide 8/4 stock that’s prettier than the prettiest girl I ever saw in college sunbathing in the quad in her bikini and might have to go with a black telecaster if I can’t get a decent butterscotch on mahogany. It’s probably a little less soft and lively than the girl in college but will make a better guitar.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:09 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1838
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I edited my last post - I was just looking at Erlewine's book.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:30 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Freeman wrote:
I edited my last post - I was just looking at Erlewine's book.


He’s probably a bit more worried about an exact color match than I want to be. My personal opinion is that “butterscotch” has a spectrum in the real world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:46 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:43 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Staten Island, NY
First name: David
Last Name: Schwab
City: Staten Island
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 10201
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The original Tele finish was a translucent white. So you could faintly see the grain.

It turned yellow with age.

There’s no reason you can’t do that with mahogany, but it’s not going to look the same at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:47 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 am
Posts: 25
First name: McLovin
Last Name: Anderson
City: Moss Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94038
Country: United States of America
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
DavidSchwab wrote:
The original Tele finish was a translucent white. So you could faintly see the grain.

It turned yellow with age.

There’s no reason you can’t do that with mahogany, but it’s not going to look the same at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As you might imagine, I'm unlikely to want to find paint that yellows with age and hope it turns the right color of yellow over time, especially on a different type of wood than Leo Fender used many years ago. It's more likely that I'd want the right color of yellow paint to cover up the different color wood, which is unlikely to change colors over time. I hope you've found this clarification helpful :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:32 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:43 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Staten Island, NY
First name: David
Last Name: Schwab
City: Staten Island
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 10201
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Digelectric wrote:

As you might imagine, I'm unlikely to want to find paint that yellows with age and hope it turns the right color of yellow over time, especially on a different type of wood than Leo Fender used many years ago. It's more likely that I'd want the right color of yellow paint to cover up the different color wood, which is unlikely to change colors over time. I hope you've found this clarification helpful :)



All nitrocellulose lacquer turns yellow. Acrylic doesn’t.

You can use transtints to get an amber look to the clear top coats. That way you can adjust how yellow it is.

Same with the white color coats. Spray as much as needed to get the level of opacity.

Personally I like the white finish and not the butterscotch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com