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 Post subject: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:52 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:04 pm
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First name: Mark
Last Name: Klee
City: Alpharetta
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30009
Country: usa
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Status: Amateur
Okay, so first stupid question on my first build:

I received my kit from Blues Creek last week and have been letting it acclimate to my basement for about 5 or 6 days ... but I'm chomping at the bit to get started. I built a mold and go-bar deck and I'm now ready to start.

However, my kit came without the rosette installed (unexpectedly) and I can't find anything anywhere about how to glue it in. I've watched a number of inlay videos (Blues Creek) and see he just drops super glue on the pearl inlays for the fretboard ... do I do the same with the rosette? It's got 3 different "rings" routed out with a supply of alternating black and white plastic that fits very snuggly. Can I just insert them around the hole and then spread super glue on top or do I need to put glue underneath?

Any suggestions and/or warnings would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:27 am 
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Cocobolo
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If you buy some of the thinner super glue, then yes you should be able to install the rosette dry then simply flood the whole thing with the glue, and let it wick in between everything. I haven't ever used super glue for this myself, but have read that if you do this you should first apply a layer of shellac sealer in the rosette channels, or the super glue will discolor the wood around the rosette.

You can also just use white glue to glue it in, although that's kinda messy (and is too thick to wick in, needs to be applied to the channel first), or do what I did on my latest build, thinned fish glue instead of super glue.


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:17 am 
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Thin CA glue works great just shellac first to avoid and discoloration of the spruce.

Fred

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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Walnut
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First name: Mark
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Do you have to shellac the entire top or just shellac the channel? I've also heard you can use duco cement ... but again, I'm assuming it has to be glued from within the channel b/c it won't wick due to the thickness.

I'm concerned about the whole discoloration issue.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:13 pm 
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Cocobolo
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MarkK wrote:
Do you have to shellac the entire top or just shellac the channel? I've also heard you can use duco cement ... but again, I'm assuming it has to be glued from within the channel b/c it won't wick due to the thickness.

I'm concerned about the whole discoloration issue.

Mark


It can't hurt to apply a layer of shellac on the entire top, as it will provide some protection against all sorts of things while you work on it, and can be sanded easily.

That's what I have done on both guitars I have worked on.


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:22 pm 
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Walnut
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By shellacking now, does it limit my options for finishing later? I haven't even begun to think about which type of finish I want to do so I certainly don't want to do anything that would limit my options. I guess that was my concern about using shellack in the first place.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:06 pm 
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You can also use sanding sealer in a spray can. The coat you are putting on will be thin and will be sanded off before you put on your final finish, so its nothing to worry about. Unless you dont sand all of it off!
If you are just installing your rosette, you should not have sanded the top yet, right? You should have plenty of material to remove after the rosette is in because it probably wont be flush with the top.
Just be sure you FULLY seal the spruce in the rosette channel and the area around the rosette channel. CA will turn the spruce a lovely shade of urine.
Duco is a fine glue for rosettes because it is not waterbased and will not swell the spruce or the rosette (if it is wood) both of which could cause you to have issues getting an already tight fitting rosette to seat properly. Having said that, if you use Titebond, just make sure you work fast. Apply the glue and get the rosette in the slot fast before the water in the titebond swells the wood.
Titebond is a good choice to use if your rosette does not fit tightly in the channel for that very reason. It will swell the wood and fill small voids. CA will fill gaps too, but with CA, not wood.
Duco will not swell the wood at all.
I have used all three methods, CA, Titebond and Duco. Each has their purpose. Choose wisely Grasshopper.

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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Walnut
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First name: Mark
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Thanks Tony, I keep going back and forth on which to use - CA or Duco. The rosette is 3 rings made up of several layers of black and white plastic. My two concerns are: 1) its a very tight fit and I'm worried about putting anything in the slot that will take up additional room ... such as duco, and 2) discoloration from the CA.

Still not sure what I'm going to do ...


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:46 pm 
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MarkK wrote:
By shellacking now, does it limit my options for finishing later? I haven't even begun to think about which type of finish I want to do so I certainly don't want to do anything that would limit my options. I guess that was my concern about using shellack in the first place.

Mark


If you are comfortable mixing your own shellac, using super blond shellac in a thin cut will help ensure no unwanted more amber colors find there way to end-grain or elsewhere on the top. Seal the channel a couple times with the thin cut using a fine brush. Then flood the channel with shellac, wiping out the excess with a paper towel. Allow it to dry thoroughly before applying CA. CA is great for tight fitting rosettes, provided you take the necessary precautions to avoid staining end-grain.

I like the warm amber look of say Zeniser Seal Coat, and the ease of using the premixed shellac. Highly recommended if you aren't worried about an amber tint. Just thin the seal coat premixed stuff out a bit with DA to seal the channel.

Just about any finish will stick to shellac, so you don't have to worry about adhesion problems, and as has been mentioned, a thin coat or 2 of shellac sands off completely very quickly. You will find sealing the entire top with a wash coat prevents a great number of undesirable problems from arising like stains from dark wood sanding dust, tearout when routing rosette and binding channels and pulling binding tape (you must still pay attention to grain runout when pulling tape, but this helps lessen the risks).

Aaron

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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:23 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:45 pm
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First name: Mark
City: Quinton
State: VA
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Country: virginia
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Status: Amateur
I hope this is not hijacking but I have a question along these lines.
I have a premade (D28 type) rosette. My question is what are the measurements /placement for routing out the channel and at what depth?

Thanks
StephenX


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Mark,

How tight is the fit of the rosette in the channel? How deep is the channel compared to the rosette blank? I always wince when I hear the term 'flood' with CA. Frankly, that's a gross exageration. What you should do is use small disposable micro pipettes and place a few 'drops' every inch or so. (thin CA) It will wick around and you'll be surprised at how much milleage you'll get out of a little drop.

If you find the rosette is loose in the channel (not a compression fit) then I would recommend using Titebond. TB will swell the wood and eat up a bit of space if you have any play.

If the fit is nice and tight, then you can use CA, but, as stated before, make sure you seal the top around those channels with shellac. You don't need to do the whole top, but if you drop some CA somewhere on there, you'll wish you had. It sands off very easily and leaves no trace, so no worries there.

Stephen,

What are the measurements on that rosette? Lay it flat and measure the diameter inside and out. Is it a three ring affair or just a simple ring? I'll assume it's a three ring affair. I'm not sure but I think the inner ring would be about 3/16 from the sound hole. The best way would be to draw it out on paper first. See what distances please your eye the most. Keep in mind the middle ring can probably flex a bit and accomodate different sizes (within reason).

As for depth, well I guess that depends on what method you'll be using to clean up the rosette afterwards. I have a drum sander and I'll usually leave the top at about .125 before installing the rosette. I try to rout as closely as I can, which is usually about .050-.060 (I make my rosettes myself). Either way, if the rosette is a bit proud of the channel, or vise versa, I just clean it up on the sander and then I'll thickness from the back.

If you're using hand tools, it's probably easier to leave the rosette a touch proud of the top. Then you can use a good sanding block and sand flush to the top.

I don't know if you like building jigs or if you have this one already, but I can't say enough about the Wells/Karol circle cutting jig for cutting out rosette channels­. It is quite simply, the BOMB!

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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I just use white glue for this procedure, just a little.

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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:04 pm
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First name: Mark
Last Name: Klee
City: Alpharetta
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30009
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hey guys, thanks for all the input - I actually glued it up back in February. After all of the input I received I decided to give the spruce top a couple coats of shellac, I inserted the rosette pieces and then dropped CA glue. It worked like a charm and came out VERY nice and tight. I was afraid everything was too tight to do it any other way.

Thanks again for the input.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Gluing the rosette?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Walnut
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I haven't ever used super glue for this myself, but have read that if you do this you should first apply a layer of shellac sealer in the rosette channels, or the super glue will discolor the wood around the rosette.

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