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 Post subject: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:13 pm 
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Mahogany
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Last Name: Henriks Madureira
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As the title says...show your cnc machines.

And also your jigs and fixtures, i'm really curious to see what use you guys make of your CNC's.

I'll start.

Image
Image

Mine is a Xzero Raptor, and I use it pretty much for everything. Neck carving, contours, bodies, fretboards, etc etc.

Also have a digitizing probe that I use for reverse engineering some parts. Latest project were some neck cauls a guy had done in Bondo, and wanted several new ones for his repair shop.

Image
Image

Also used it for a bass body duplication that started with an MDF template.

Image

Image

How about you guys?

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These users thanked the author Puresoundguitar for the post: Durero (Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:29 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:18 am 
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A. CNC Machines are not cheep, or at least not the ones worth owning like a 5 axis, so how many of us do you expect to own one?

B. It is cheating, if you have never built a guitar (one that would pass the scrutiny of a seasoned luthier) by hand first, and no machine will make you a luthier, just another manufacturer destined for failure. There is much more to the craft than meets the eye.

Anyone with the funds can go and buy a CNC, learn how to program it and pump out "Guitars", but it does not make them a luthier. I have toyed with the idea of building one, and using it to build guitars, but it does not end there. Where the hell would I put such a large behemoth, bits and accessories cost a small fortune, and the CNC forums are jam packed with programming problems few seem to able to solve, and there is very little to no reliable information on feed rates...

Run a CNC all day, and have the cops, kill you in a "No Knock raid" for mistaking your Weller for a gun, all because your electricity use is near the same as that of someone growing weed with growing lights! [headinwall]

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:41 am 
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Mahogany
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There is so much that shows a lack of knowledge (to put it politely) in your post, that I'm not even going to bother debating it.

A. If there's a sub-forum here called "CNC and Lutherie" kind of shows that these machines are a tool like any other.

B. Go tell Nik Huber or Dingwall about their "cheating" and using cnc machines, i'm sure they will agree with this... laughing6-hehe After all they're not real luthiers. duh

C. As for the challenges of owning and operating one, if you're not willing to put the time, money, and effort to learn... or you don't have the abilities for that....that's fine, there are many of us that can. And that's also fine.

Why so much hate?

And by the way, if you want some more reliable information on the use of a CNC in lutherie, don't hesitate asking. There are many luthiers in this forum that will glady help you to see the advantages of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:46 am 
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True--a decent CNC machine isn't cheap. But a three or four axis machine will work just fine for most lutherie chores. Mine is 4 axis, but I rarely use but 3. I've built instruments for years with no CNC machine, and build mostly by hand today. But chores that I used to accomplish with a shaper or router jigs--hogging out big volumes of wood without flaring up arthritic old joints--I now do with a CNC machine. This also keeps my hands much farther away from big whirling cutters. In my younger days, these tasks were done completely by hand, so I think I've earned the right to cheat a bit on the hogging out processes.

In addition to hogging out, I use my machine for fretboards. I used to do this with a backsaw and later with a table saw. With the CNC, I can do things (like "faux bound" boards) that would have been impossible with either of my previous methods, and changing scale lengths is a snap. It's just a better way to cut fret slots.

Finally, my machine (24x48x8) is big enough to do everything I need it to do, but takes up far less space than a shaper and a shop full of jigs. More room than I need for an all-handwork setup, but less than I needed prior to getting the CNC machine. My machine paid for itself in the first run of instruments I built using it (a less expensive yet no lesser quality, "standard model" instrument instead of my usual, one-off custom instruments). I couldn't have sold these instruments at a competitive price without the use of my CNC.

CNC is just another tool. CAD/CAM work is an art unto itself, and until someone has gone through the process of creating a machineable 3D solid with complex surfaces like an archtop guitar plate, I don't think they can fully appreciate what goes into "pumping out guitars." Just using a CNC for cutting out a top or back doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of hand graduation and other lutherie chores that goes into an instrument.

My machine is also an XZero Raptor with a Colombo spindle.


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These users thanked the author ballbanjos for the post: Puresoundguitar (Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:06 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:16 am 
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Guitarizzmo wrote:

Run a CNC all day, and have the cops, kill you in a "No Knock raid" for mistaking your Weller for a gun, all because your electricity use is near the same as that of someone growing weed with growing lights! [headinwall]


:D CNC is a gateway drug and in this case to GAS, guitar acquisition syndrome. :)

Bob my friend lots of us being interested in Lutherie also may have an interest in CNC because after all it's more very cool tools..... I can see the attraction and I'll add feel it too having been interested in CNC for a while now.

You are right it's not the same skills as endlessly toiling selflessly by candle light with sharp chisel in hand...:) But on the other hand it is a new skill set, different from anything in the past and not at all easy to learn well or quickly either. I view CNC as simply a different approach to Lutherie that requires it's very own skill set to master, some bucks too.....

You mentioned in another thread that you learned to code in HTML, Flash, etc. Consider how long that took, the dedication on your part, etc. For these CNC guys it's no different and perhaps even more complex, I don't know but it would not surprise me.

As such I think that there is ample room for the CNC guys and CNC also has some real promise as well in my view because what a CNC does best is repetitive things that we humans may get bored with.

As an observer from afar of how CNC has been applied to Lutherie to date with some of the usual suspect f*ctories they may use CNC to cut costs, save time, eliminate personnel costs and commitments and BS....

My hope is that some of our friends here will see CNC as a way to take the craft to a place that it may not have been before and not just be a cost cutting, human labor eliminating thing. We already can purchase CNC fret boards that the fret spacing is far more accurate than we can do with hand work and more accurate in a way that can be perceived, measured, etc.

Dave Collins has been doing this multi-year study of fret spacing that I mentioned before where he has a database of hundreds of instruments that he measured and noted their fret spacing. Many of these if not most have errors that are above the threshold where a human can hear a defect, 4 cents.

Dave measured some CNC boards and the error rate was by far the very least he had ever measured AND there were no errors that even approached that 4 cent threshold.

So there is value in them there hills of CNC machines and the guys who make this stuff work. There is promise too as to where that value add can be a measurable improvement to our craft in the future.

Old farts like me have to remain open minded to the possibilities and perhaps, just perhaps recognize that although the approach to Lutherie is not the same as the traditional approach CNC can have great value anyway AND we are only scratching the surface at present too.

One more thing to add. I know two guys now who went this route with CNC and the learning curve was pretty steep for them I will add. Steep enough that it scared the hell out of me too... What these guys do although "different" is by no means easy and as such deserves respect in it's own rite.

Back to my chisel and candle..... :)



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Durero (Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:18 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:30 am 
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CNC would give me the precision to replicate a design and tweak features for experimental improvements. I think it would be a perfect tool for defining a perfect neck profile that I could not do by hand, and be able to repeat it.
I see it as a tool used for making continuous improvements on a design.
I mostly use hand cutting tools these days, and I certainly do not consider using a power router or sander, or CNC as cheating.
Just my thoughts,
Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:43 am 
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My machines are left over from the sale of a manufacturing business I sold a few years ago. I had four of them...selling two of them and keeping these two to make guitars...among other things.

I would feel naked without these machines and my computers. It's true that cad/cam/cnc is an ENTIRELY different approach to building guitars than conventional luthrie and requires no defense. I would still like to note that with machines and fixtures that are well understood and with the capability repeating an operation to within 1/7th of a human hair...the instruments produced using these machines can be functionally impeccable.

The fret spacing I use is based loosely on a stretch compensation formula I found and then adjusted over time. There is still the intuitive aspect of deciding how to adjust that formula but the fret slots get cut in the programmed position to within three decimal points. I recorded something to provide an example of tone for anyone seeking to hear the guitars built this way. The last quarter of this song is a sparse orchestration of only the guitar using a clean tone with all the tracks using the exact same settings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMazJGitbf8

Not to try to suggest that using cad/cam/cnc is superior to older methods of doing things...because I immensely respect craftsmanship and the virtues that underlie and feed anyone's true accomplishments. There is certainly a case to be made for the value of a handmade product...but that value is subjective. When I play guitar, I want it to be perfect (ideally) and I don't care at all how it was made.

There IS a reason that computer control is revolutionizing manufacturing and it isn't ONLY to produce profits. For many manufacturers. cad/cam/cnc is the ONLY way to deliver a world class product consistently. I respect the virtue that goes into the development of a manufacturing process as much as I do when I see the same determination in an individual.


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These users thanked the author Stuart Gort for the post: Durero (Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:12 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Koa
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Anyone with the funds can go and buy a CNC, learn how to program it and pump out "Guitars", but it does not make them a luthier. I have toyed with the idea of building one, and using it to build guitars, but it does not end there. Where the hell would I put such a large behemoth, bits and accessories cost a small fortune, and the CNC forums are jam packed with programming problems few seem to able to solve, and there is very little to no reliable information on feed rates...


I know two of the most successful, best in the craft that are doing just the opposite -- taking time to learn the technology so that the precision of these machines can be used not only to make more components but more accurate components. Actually this is not uncommon -- well known makers use these tools all time.

A luthier is one that works on stringed instruments -- surely they are not disqualified if they use precision tools and machines???

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Koa
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Oh yeah --- we have three Shopbots 48 x 96 and two Buddies 32 x 24 one can actually be set up to to run what ever length we need -- very clever design.

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:57 pm 
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Puresoundguitar wrote:
There is so much that shows a lack of knowledge (to put it politely) in your post, that I'm not even going to bother debating it.

A. If there's a sub-forum here called "CNC and Lutherie" kind of shows that these machines are a tool like any other.

B. Go tell Nik Huber or Dingwall about their "cheating" and using cnc machines, i'm sure they will agree with this... laughing6-hehe After all they're not real luthiers. duh

C. As for the challenges of owning and operating one, if you're not willing to put the time, money, and effort to learn... or you don't have the abilities for that....that's fine, there are many of us that can. And that's also fine.

Why so much hate?

No hate at all, I would love a CNC, and am not only willing to go through the learning process, but have been working on it, but the funds are not there for everything needed. I did state clearly that I have been toying with the idea, but it is hard to advance beyond toying without the toy's! Nowhere did I say it is not a valuable tool either.

I do have enough skill to build a kit, and improve it greatly because of my hand's on engineering background, and have already built a "Prove Principal" 9 axis CNC out of mainly scrap, for manipulating dangerous and even radioactive chemicals, with no electronics in or near the machine itself. Lots of rails, gears and mechanical trickery. Old school too, without CAD which I have not had the chance to learn yet. Although It amazed my bosses who had a few actual engineering degrees, would have been cost prohibitive enough to not warrant production. Also: I worked at Washburn guitars and there was a CNC, and they went through several well trained and schooled CAD/CNC operators before they found one that could do it all with that make and model without messing up. So It can not be all that easy, although it should be easier now than it was back then. You should see my router table I built, also from scrap and junk!

Nik Huber, Dingwall and others are excluded from my "Cheeting" statement because they were luthiers first, and then got a CNC, and no one is specifically included in the statement, not even the original author of the post, as I don't know his background. How can it not be true that just because you can afford a CNC and everything that goes with it is not an operation destined for failure, if you use it to make something you don't have a good grasp on? It is common that even with great engineers companies put terrible crap on the market, because the final decisions are not made by the engineers, they are made in a board room.

I think there is more wrong with how you read my post, than how I wrote it.

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:16 pm 
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Bob -- with all due respect, I see you only have a few posts, but what you are doing here is referred to as hijacking a thread. This thread and OP is an inquiry regarding "show me your machines." You can easily start your own thread about likes and dislikes and opinions of computer controlled machining and those of us that use them. Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Daniel -- I like that dust shoe, shop made or purchased? Thanks

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Puresoundguitar (Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:48 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:40 pm 
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Stuart -- your shop is too clean and organized how do you get anything done? I am just jealous, dust control in my view is a real challenge with these wood chomping monsters. In addition to the dust shoe I built a traveling bonnet and curtain around the router on our large machine works pretty good plan to do the same with the others. Each has a different configuration so its kind of design PITA. Mostly held in place with magnets.

Image

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Stuart Gort (Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:01 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:58 pm 
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Attachment:
technoheadstock.jpg

Old machine in the basement with the headstock fixture mounted. I've got more fixtures, each mount in dowel holes to the sub-plate for easy repeatable location for the offsets.

Attachment:
vf2garage.jpg

This little one wouldn't fit in the basement :o Stuart's is much bigger :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:49 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
Daniel -- I like that dust shoe, shop made or purchased? Thanks



Shop made Ken. I'll glady share the 3D files if you wish, and i'll give you the Mcmaster brushes I used.

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:34 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:35 am 
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I made this tailpiece out of Ebony and Rosewood. But it is designed by Dan pure sound guitars


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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:36 am 
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This guitar was made entirely on the big orange router. Well all parts anyway it's still require a tremendous amount of Handwork. The actual machining is only a fraction of the total.


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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:36 am 
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I went down the self build path, as I just couldn't find anything in the size and rigidity that I wanted from a comercial machine.

I have a mate on the Gold Coast that builds surf board shaping machines and collaborated with him to design a chassis that was then fabricated in China along with some machines for him, and then he supplied me with the motors, drives and a few odds and ends. The rest I sourced myself.

I wanted it capable of machining Aluminium as well as timbre. And it's certainly built rigid enough to do that. Though other than the table, I haven't tried anything else. Waiting for a Kurt vise to show up so I can hold parts appropriately.

The machine has a 600mm x 1200mm (2' x 4', actually larger, but that was the minimum I wanted) x 304mm (12") envelope. 24,000 rpm spindle.

To say that it was an unbelievable steep learning curve is the understatement of the year. But finally I have it in the workshop doing some simple, and other not so simple things.

I've set up an aluminium work table with a grid of M6 countersunk anchors to attach various jigs and vises etc. Right now I have a fret board jig, a bridge jig and a sacrificial table set up. Each has their own work co-ordinate set up so it's a simple matter of putting stock in place and running the code. No need to indicate off the material. Works a treat, but there was some brain bending to get that worked out.

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:55 am 
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Puresoundguitar wrote:
kencierp wrote:
Daniel -- I like that dust shoe, shop made or purchased? Thanks



Shop made Ken. I'll glady share the 3D files if you wish, and i'll give you the Mcmaster brushes I used.


That would be very generous of you -- sure PM the file, McMaster is one of our main suppliers so yes a part number would be useful too -- Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:00 am 
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Rand -- how in the heck did you move that Haas around! I assume you a have a big old three phase converter and a giant air compressor as well? How many amps of power are required?

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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Home made. Has limitations but I carve acoustic necks and archtop plates. In fact, I have access to a Hass VF 3 and for many things prefer mine.
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:47 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
Rand -- how in the heck did you move that Haas around! I assume you a have a big old three phase converter and a giant air compressor as well? How many amps of power are required?

Riggers easily moved it with a fork lift and then skates. There's a phase perfect mounted to the wall. Doesn't use a lot of air, I used my 2hp Garagemate for months but with the 20% penalty for altitude, it was time for something better with soft-start. I only have 100A to the subpanel but should be well under.



These users thanked the author RandK for the post: kencierp (Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:53 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Guitarizzmo wrote:
A. CNC Machines are not cheep, or at least not the ones worth owning like a 5 axis, so how many of us do you expect to own one?

B. It is cheating, if you have never built a guitar (one that would pass the scrutiny of a seasoned luthier) by hand first, and no machine will make you a luthier, just another manufacturer destined for failure. There is much more to the craft than meets the eye.

Anyone with the funds can go and buy a CNC, learn how to program it and pump out "Guitars", but it does not make them a luthier. I have toyed with the idea of building one, and using it to build guitars, but it does not end there. Where the hell would I put such a large behemoth, bits and accessories cost a small fortune, and the CNC forums are jam packed with programming problems few seem to able to solve, and there is very little to no reliable information on feed rates...

Run a CNC all day, and have the cops, kill you in a "No Knock raid" for mistaking your Weller for a gun, all because your electricity use is near the same as that of someone growing weed with growing lights! [headinwall]



I cry foul! B.S. !

beehive

It is just a tool. In my case, I built mine, so how is that cheating? I honed my lack of guitar building skills long before I built the CNC, but I built it primarily to relieve/avoid wear and tear on my hands and elbows etc. And to make a bunch of triangles for a backgammon board, but that's a different story.

I've never had the cops show up at my door either... unless I called them.
;)

Ivory towers are lonely... and so many big-name builders are using them in one form or another, so be ready to compete with them on those top shelf details...

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These users thanked the author Don Williams for the post: kencierp (Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:53 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Show your machines!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:29 am 
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Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Guitarizzmo wrote:
It is cheating, if you have never built a guitar (one that would pass the scrutiny of a seasoned luthier) by hand first, and no machine will make you a luthier, just another manufacturer destined for failure. There is much more to the craft than meets the eye.


The same can be said for cad/cam/cnc....there is much more to the craft than meets the eye. A little humility wouldn't hurt you any. Then respect is mutual :)

I said earlier that using cad/cam/cnc requires no defense. I'll alter that by adding the caveat..."unless it's attacked on the grounds of legitimacy".

In the aviation industry manufacturers aren't considered legitimate UNLESS they have this equipment. I beat my head against the wall learning this stuff and spent nearly a half million dollars on machines and software...in order to HAVE integrity as a manufacturer. That's something to consider when you impugn the integrity of people by implying they are "cheaters" simply because they know how to use cad/cam/cnc...and then have the audacity to apply that knowledge to your sacred domain.

I'm pretty sure my instruments would pass the scrutiny of any builder concerned with the function of a musical instrument.

I'm trying to have a sense of humor here...but you are making it kind of difficult with some of these statements. :)

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic



These users thanked the author Stuart Gort for the post (total 3): Clif (Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:59 am) • Durero (Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:21 pm) • kencierp (Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:52 am)
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