Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:37 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:20 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
I am now thinking of using the neck inserts (flush heel-no tenon,1/2" dowel inserted in heel)for my next guitar.
I have looked through the archives and from what I can tell people are buying them at the local hardware store.
I have heard a few horror stories of them pulling out and just wnt to make triple sure that I am using the best ones available.
I have no problem buying them from LMI if they are the "right" ones.
Signed,
Nervous in Brewster


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:35 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Brad, I've used the LMI ones one time, and they worked just fine.
McFeely's also have a great variety of inserts. They have some stainless
steel ones with very small outer threads that are great for hard maple.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:06 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
Thanks,Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:03 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:24 am
Posts: 744
Location: United States
Brad...you mentioned you are constructing a "Flush heel-no tenon" type neck. I have been thinking about this for a while. What are the pro's & con's to this type of construction method?

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:24 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
Brad,
One advantage of having no tenon is it is easier to construct/adjust.
The only advantage I can see of having a tenon is there is more "meat" at the heel.
Both joints still depend on the same strength of the inserts not pulling out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:30 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 1325
Location: Kings Mtn., NC, USA
First name: Bill
Last Name: Greene
City: Kings Mountain
State: North Carolina
Zip/Postal Code: 28086
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
If I'm not mistaken, Grumpy does this and has been an advocate of it for sometime. You might ping him and see if he'll discuss it. I'd like to hear myself.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:31 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
Grumpy? Any Suggestions?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:05 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

I have switched over to the no tenon neck heel about 7 or 8 guitars ago. It is MUCh easier to work on the neck angles without the tenon in the way.


As far as the inserts, I use brass inserts that I bought from lowes. They have worked out fine for me so far. The ones I am afraid of are the "pot metal" ones with the segmented outer edges. While these may be ok, I just dont like them.


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:14 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:37 am
Posts: 4777
I've decided that I'd like to be able to build a complete guitar, which
means being able to build a neck and bridge. This isn't a value statement
about those who don't build their own necks and bridges, but it's a skill
I'd like to say I have.

Just yesterday I was wondering how you drill holes in the neck and heel
block that are perfectly aligned and also perfectly squared. Clearly you
would connect the neck to the heel block to get aligned holes, but how do
you go about holding the two square to the drill? If you go with a
tenonless neck, how would you fasten it to the heel block while drilled the
holes so that they're aligned?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:35 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

Someone asked me a while back about how I went about lining up the holes so that the bolt lined up with the insert. It is as simple as making yourself a simple T-square, complete with a center line and the holes pre-drilled in the jig. I think the pictures are self explanitory. I made this out of some scrap pieces of lexan and it works perfectly every time as long as you keep the center lines lined up.





 WHile these pictures just show the neck, you can reverse it and drill the holes for the body of the guitar with the same jig. It is one of the last things I do before I set the neck.


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:43 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
I gave up on inserts a few years ago, and now use hanger bolts instead, ala Collings. Just yor standard hardware store, 1/4" hanger bolt. The ones with a wood thread at one end, and a thread to accept a regular nut at the other. I then use flanged nuts, so no washer is needed.

Only requires a 3/16" hole in the heel, so it leaves a lot more wood in there; the inerts would cut away 75% of the 1/2" dowel.... and they're plenty, plenty strong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:48 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:37 am
Posts: 4777
That's great, Ken. Thanks for posting the images! How do you hold the
neck to make sure the holes are squared?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida
I usually hold the neck in a soft jawed vise when drilling it. Getting it square isnt the real problem..... drilling deep enough to accomodate the insert without driliing completely through the heel is the real challenge

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2683
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
[QUOTE=grumpy] I gave up on inserts a few years ago, and now use hanger bolts instead, ala Collings. Just yor standard hardware store, 1/4" hanger bolt. The ones with a wood thread at one end, and a thread to accept a regular nut at the other. I then use flanged nuts, so no washer is needed.Only requires a 3/16" hole in the heel, so it leaves a lot more wood in there; the inerts would cut away 75% of the 1/2" dowel.... and they're plenty, plenty strong. <div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">
[/QUOTE]

Mario, do you put a dowel in your heel?

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:39 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:57 am
Posts: 97
Location: East Granby, CT

Wow...No tenon?  In a world like this where so much deference is made to tradition, aren't you concerned that some will see this as a possible quality issue?  Or perhaps consider it "production line" made? 


I have no problem with the strength of the joint, but I'd wager that it could be compared someone using a biscuit joiner or a festool domino on a queen anne lowboy...nothing wrong with the joint, but...not "traditional"


Don't want to start  war so don't flame me, just thinking out loud...you can bet tenonless is something I'll try...but I put up with a lot of crap for thinking outside the box on joinery at the woodworking school I teach at - this feels like that...


Mitch



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:31 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:53 am
Posts: 1584
Location: PA, United States
[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Someone asked me a while back about how I went about lining up the holes so that the bolt lined up with the insert. It is as simple as making yourself a simple T-square, complete with a center line and the holes pre-drilled in the jig. I think the pictures are self explanitory. I made this out of some scrap pieces of lexan and it works perfectly every time as long as you keep the center lines lined up.


 




 WHile these pictures just show the neck, you can reverse it and drill the holes for the body of the guitar with the same jig. It is one of the last things I do before I set the neck.


[/QUOTE]


Ken, This idea is good, but consider the following. The plexi isn't thick enough to ensure square drilling with a hand held drill. Also, the plexi will wear out. Make the plexi at least 1/2" thick. Using a drill press, drill holes and insert proper drill bushings into the jig. This will enable square drilling and jig longevity



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:47 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
Yes, a dowel.

Mitch, there are millions of guitars made this way, including every Taylor and other well respected brands. Bolt-on necks became well accepted a long time ago....



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:48 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
Mitch,
Those days are over. Some of the best most respected luthiers (some command prices of over $10,000.!)are using this type of joint,unless you are buying a "true" reproduction of a particular style of guitar.
I bet if you asked many players what type of neck joint (or finish,or type of bracewood,etc.etc.)on their guitar they wouldn't know -or care-they are putting their trust in the guitarmaker they chose.
They are concerned with how it plays,looks and sounds.

Ken,
I am drilling the holes while the neck is still square,so I can clamp it to the drill press table(my table tilts vertically).
I use a transfer punch to tranfer the previously drilled hole locations from the headblock to the neck blank.

Terry,
I agree with you about the inserts if you are using a jig like Kens. Mario has a great picture of this on his website.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:50 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
I was typing at the same time as Mario..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:52 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667

I was typing at the same time as Mario..


parish the thought....



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:22 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2683
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
[QUOTE=grumpy] Yes, a dowel.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Mario. If you don't mind filling in a few details... what diameter of dowel do you use? Does it extend the full length of the heel, from the underside of the fretboard to the heel cap? Is it glued in place along its entire length, or do you do anything tricky to allow for wood movement differential between the dowel and the heel? What glue do you use when installing the dowel? Do you concern yourself with orienting the growth rings of the dowel in a particular direction relative to the heel? Do you install the dowel only when the moon is in a particular phase?   

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:33 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:50 am
Posts: 214
Location: United States
OK....I may be missing something here...having exactly one bolt-on
acoustic neck on my resume (Cumpiano-style with tenon and cross dowels).



How do you guys leave enough "slop" in the system to permit you to make
small changes to the neck angle?  If you have perfectly square and
tight alignment of bolts in their holes, and you try to change the neck
angle....stuff won't fit anymore.



What do you do, leave the holes in the neck block a little large
compared with the bolt diameter?  This is what I ended up doing
with my own joint, but if this was the wrong way to go I'd like to know.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:23 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 2477
Location: Argyle New York
First name: Mike/Mikey/Michael/hey you!
Last Name: Collins
City: Argyle
State: New York
Zip/Postal Code: 12809
Country: U.S.A. /America-yea!!
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I use the deep threaded steel inserts from Mc feeleys!
Never had a problem with them!
I do not dowel the heel-and use allen head screws from the local hardware.
These buggars if inserted correctly will hold hundreds of pounds on pull!
BUY the corrcet driver for them-camfer the hole(so as not to pull out the wood)
Use moderate to firm pressure to drive them-I use a 10mm hole
good luck!
mc

_________________
Mike Collins


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:30 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
Thanks,Mike!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:06 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2244
Location: United States
First name: michael
Last Name: mcclain
City: pendleton
State: sc
Zip/Postal Code: 29670
Status: Professional
since when did bolt on necks become traditional, tenon or no???

bolt-on butt joints have been fairly common since the 70's thanks to bob taylor and a few others, with the bolted straight mortise and tenon not long after, but its a bit of a stretch to call either traditional.
 
the traditional neck joint is the dovetail mortise and tenon, and yes, when bob taylor started using a bolted butt joint in the 70's there were traditionalists who scoffed. tens of thousands of guitars later bolt on necks have become so accepted that many of the foremost custom builders in the world use the technology.



Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com