Official Luthiers Forum!

Oh and Mark, like I mentioned above my apprentice has been working on
this for months and I am still criticizing his work. Don't expect to master
your fret work by the end of this thread, and try not to get discouraged as it
does take time and practice.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=David Collins] Are you familiar with setting nut height by pressing
past the second fret and checking string clearance above the third?[/QUOTE]

"checking string clearance above the first"

Boy, I can't wait for the return of the edit button....

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Ok Mark, you ruled out my two most obvious problems. So further down the troubleshooting path we must venture.
If you fret the first fret, what is the height of the string at the 12th fret? To do this, I usually put a capo on the first so I have both hands free. Then set an accurate rule on the 12th fret and get my face way down there and see exactly how far the bottom of the string is about that fret. On the bottom E you want to look for 3/32 and on the top e you want to look for 2/32.
See where you are and let us know at that point.

Another less likely problem could be that you have a "springy" fret. One that doesn't want to seat properly. When you pass something over it (like your leveling plane) you push it down then it bounces back up. The only way to check this is to get a straight edge that is only the length of 3 frets. (you'll need several as this distance changes as you work your way up the board). Then check each fret for "rock". Don't push hard as you'll push the springy fret down, but very gently rock it to see of you get a clicking sound.
Good luck and let us know your progress.

One last thing to check that I don't think has been mentioned is buzzing on a fret behind where you are fretting.  Sometimes a nut slot is filed too low and, although it won't buzz when played open, the section of string between the nut and the fret you are fretting will vibrate sympathetically and buzz on the second or third fret.  I spent hours finding one of those once.  A rare problem but it happens and behind the fretted area is not someplace you expect to look.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

How much relief do you have? (Measure it with a feeler gauge under the 6th string with the capo on the first fret and fretting it at the 14th fret.)

What frets buzz on what strings?

And as Paul asks, how high is your action?

And to be clear, when measuring relief, the feeler gauge should go under the string at the 7th fret.

i wish i could claim credit for the idea but i learned it many years ago from hideo kamimoto's book.

Well, my reference to "Official Luthier" was indeed in jest, given the very title of this forum.   

Still, if any of you think that you can plunge right into building high quality guitars without knowing jack diddly squat about repairing guitars, you are seriously delusional.

Also, there are so many tutorials out there...and good ones...on fret work that asking folks here to reinvent what is already available from Stew Mac, Frank Ford, and any number of good books and videos is a serious violation of the principle of simply doing your due diligence and homework.   This is asking for "Reinventing the Wheel 101."

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Well, my reference to "Official Luthier" was indeed in jest, given the very title of this forum.   

Still, if any of you think that you can plunge right into building high quality guitars without knowing jack diddly squat about repairing guitars, you are seriously delusional.

Also, there are so many tutorials out there...and good ones...on fret work that asking folks here to reinvent what is already available from Stew Mac, Frank Ford, and any number of good books and videos is a serious violation of the principle of simply doing your due diligence and homework.   This is asking for "Reinventing the Wheel 101."

[/QUOTE]

Bravo...well put Nothing like good old experience!

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

[QUOTE=jonhfry]

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about building guitars (an Official Luthier...) should spend several years in the trenches of retail guitar repair.   To build a guitar and not know the first thing about fret work is like building a car and not knowing that the tires need to be inflated or building a sailboat and not knowing how to tie a knot.   Fretwork is absolutely the most basic stuff there is, and knowing how to do it should either precede building a guitar or you should be building under the watchful eye of an "Official Luthier."[/QUOTE]

 

Wow?! Did someone put something in you Wheaties or what?

You are entitled to your opinion, standoffish as it is. Some of us build for ourselves and the sake of learning something new. I personally feel like your rant may discourage people from asking valid questions, out of the fear of sounding ignorant and getting comments like yours. And that is just too bad. The guy said it was only his second build and he was seeking help because he was unfamiliar with an aspect of troubleshooting.

Personally I have had an infatuation with the guitar since I was 10 years old, and happen to be a college grad with a job that unfortunately has nothing to do with guitar. I am still building even though I never had the opportunity, and probably never will, to "work in the trenches of retail repair."(After all some of us have to eat, and retail repair isn't always the highest paying job.) You obviously had no other intent in making such a comment other than to express your own unconscious dissatisfaction with something.....   

[/QUOTE]

You know what John, I did something very similar as you have just done here to Rick Turner about a year or more ago.

Rick left for a very very long time and we all lost out on his wisdom (learned and otherwise) and willingness to share what he knows.

I need to stand up for what he says. He and many other seasoned veterans are here to give back to the guitar building community. This takes time away from the real paying work that they do and for that one thing alone I'm very very thankful for them.

There are a few seasoned veterans here who have a bit of a sharp edge and sometimes what they say comes off as a bit harsh or "standoffish" as you put it, but if you can look past this, the wisdom that these folks have to offer is more than many of us will ever learn in a life time.

So please, lets give some respect to these true veterans of the craft who freely give of their wisdom and vast knowledge. Lets ask for help so they can make us all better builders, one guitar at a time.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

So Rick, at the risk of being the lone bad guy here, I gotta disagree with you.
Ok, so let's say our friend Mark gets a position with you as an apprentice. Just as you prescribed, he's putting in his time in the trenches. But is he not allowed to ask a question because there is already a Stew-Mac video that presents the subject?
If that were the case, this forum wouldn't exist. Period.
There's not a single subject covered here that we couldn't find in this or that book, video, website, etc. Freely giving out information is what we are all about.
I've got to say that your posts in response to Mark's questions have been less than encouraging. He asked an honest question, rather than belittle him for not knowing the answer or doing his homework, why don't we all encourage him and help him along.
As said before, this is guitar #2 for him. How many of us didn't make some mistakes on #2?
I think we owe it to the craft to suck up our pride a bit and help those with a little less experience than we have. We were all in those shoes at one point.
end of rant.

I, Too, am grateful to those who are more educated  and experienced in the craft than I am for their time and knowledge that they share on the forum. I understand their frustration with questions that have been answered in so many places and ways only to be asked here also. Dilligence and research are essential in becoming a luthier or even just a novice builder. I cant tell you the vast number of hours I have spent studying the wealth of information there is on the internet on building guitars. I MUST say that sometimes even dumb and redundant questions spawn responses that even the seasoned of us find of interest and new ways to accomplish tasks that we do every day in a better or easier way. I know this old dog has learned some new tricks!

Getting back to the topic of a buzz, One question I would like to ask Ms960  is if he has any ideas that there may have been a brace knocked loose in his box while he was building? This is one of those things that doesnt normally pose a problem, but in this case he says that he has leveled the frets, and as Hesh suggests I hope he checks the seating of the saddle and the angle of the strings on the nut and saddle. If those are all acceptable, then the next step would be to take off all of the strings and get out a mirror and check for braces that may have broken or come unglued.

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Reguards,

Ken H

My posts encourage Mark to do some homework. My remarks also address my firmly held belief that in order to truly understand guitars and to learn how to make great ones, you need real world experience fixing them and dealing with musicians.

I think that anyone who is serious about learning our craft should avail themselves of all the information that is so easy to get these days. You learn to crawl before walking, and you learn to walk before running. There is a logical progression to learning lutherie, and it's incredibly available to anyone.   But a doc doesn't ask how to fix a botched brain operation before getting out of pre-med...

Also, I think that asking luthiers to diagnose instrument problems over the Internet is an iffy proposition at best. Any of us with experience could probably diagnose that buzz in 20 seconds with the guitar in our hands. Why not take the guitar to someone with experience?

I happen to believe that there is a logical progression for learning the craft of lutherie and that it does not start with building a guitar, it starts with learning how guitars actually work which is best done through repair work and lots of interaction with real musicians. That may not be a convenient truth for a lot of people, but how can you build better guitars until you know what goes wrong with the ones that are out there?   How can you set up guitars properly without having done so for patient and good musicians?   Or, for that matter, how can you do any of this without a good teacher?   I don't think you can. I think that anyone who is serious about this craft should invest in themselves.   Buy the books that are available (they weren't when I was learning 44 years ago, by the way)...yes, put several hundred bucks into a library.   Buy the videos that are out there starting with Dan Erlewine's for Stew Mac.   Read every page of Frank Ford's www.frets.com blog site. Buy a cheap guitar and refret it six times whether it needs it or not. Make half a dozen string nuts and saddles for said guitar. Do that to an electric and an acoustic, and then sell them and buy a decent fixer-upper and fix it and sell it. Go to lutherie school if you actually want to get a job in this field.   Roberto Venn and Red Wing for long courses, and any of a dozen or more for short intensives. Pay attention to the folks who actually have done this kind of work for decades and understand that they are learning something new every day of their professional lives.

I ask that beginning luthiers respect the craft and do their homework before asking questions. Learn the language, the vocabulary before engaging in discussions.    Otherwise it is like a high schooler coming in and asking questions in a college graduate level physics course. Of course I like that the student wants to learn, but there's some work to do before you get to enter that advanced classroom.

The ironic thing is that I believe that neck and fret work should be the very first thing that a luthier learns. I don't think that anyone should even pick up a stick of wood or a saw until the basics are covered. Fret/Neck Work 101 is as basic as you can get. The relationship of strings to the rest of the instrument IS what guitar making is all about, and to gloss over that part of learning the craft is just ridiculous. I've seen a few too many guitars with great purfling joints and utterly dreadful playability to go for this new age of guitar making stuff.

And I'm happy to be the cranky old Geppetto-like craftsman in the workshop snapping at the hapless apprentices... I'm the guy who loved the scene in "Red Violin" where the master violin maker smashes the apprentice's fiddle...Sometimes a wakeup call is not a bad thing.

My grandfather always said, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all".

_________________
Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
....Still, if any of you think that you can plunge right into building high quality guitars without knowing jack diddly squat about repairing guitars, you are seriously delusional.
...

a serious violation of the principle of simply doing your due diligence and homework.   This is asking for "Reinventing the Wheel 101."

[/QUOTE]

Mr. Turner,

With only 80 posts here in two years, I find your remarks rude and disrespectful. One of our active members asked a question that was not directed to you and that no one else here found offensive but you. If you want to continue to denigrate enthusiastic beginners as you have been known to do on the Acoustic Guitar Forum, then you can do it there; that's your sandbox and you're welcome to it. But please refrain from blustering in here with your dogged opinions when they don't contribute to the discussion at hand.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Where is a professional luthier to go to discuss things? I see forum after forum held down to Lutherie 101. I see the same questions that can be better answered by doing some easy homework come up time after time, and many, like this one, are difficult to answer without the guitar in hand. This gets to be like diagnosing an appendix infection over the phone.   An honest doctor will tell you to go to the hospital.   

You think I'm rude? I think that this world of lutherie is becoming saturated with oversensitive types who want everything to be all kissy-kissy. Can nobody take honest criticism? Does anyone want the truth?   

And the truth is that neck and fret work are Lutherie 101. And if you can't do decent work in that arena, you shouldn't expect praise for building a guitar just because you did it. There is good work...and, dammit, there is bad work. A dedicated craftsperson will get over being corrected, and they will learn to do better work. They won't go crying to mommy because the nasty old luthier told them to learn their job and to do it correctly.   

In my shop I am full of praise for work done well, and I don't mind throwing out parts that don't meet my standards. I constructively criticize my employees, and I tell them how to get better at what they do, just as I made suggestions here as to where to find information on fretwork. This question only came up because MS960 chose not to go to where the information already is to be found.   

Also, I may have but 60 posts here, but I'd be willing to bet a hundred bucks that there are less than a handful (literally fewer than five) luthiers here who have been at this profession since 1963. If you think that the number of posts indicates the amount of experience in this field, then that is also a truly delusional opinion. Show me one other person here who has had their hands directly on in the building of about 3,700 guitars and basses in small shops, who has been to as many big guitar factories, and who has also repaired as many guitars as I have, and I'll buy the next round. If you don't want my level of experience to be available here, then rant on about how hurt you are and how rude I am.   I'm blunt, not rude. If I wanted to be rude, you'd know it!

If this is to be a feel-good forum instead of a real luthiers' forum, then I guess I don't have much to offer. I've seen several other "luthiers" forums descend into a kind of self-congratulatory orgy of irrelevance, and I'd hoped that this one would be working at the highest level possible. I keep hoping against hope that the Internet will be a place where striving for excellence trumps talking in circles...but that doesn't seem to be the case.

BTW, I did not find the original post offensive; I found it off the mark given my opinion that such matters can be addressed so easily by doing some basic research and by learning this craft in a logical order.

Take this guitar to a pro luthier who can diagnose it in hand. Nobody here really knows why it's buzzing because they can't see and play the guitar.    

I started my journey by refretting and making a new saddle for a friend
on his beater guitar and am in the process of refishing it and making a
new nut for it. It is a real eye opener when I started this and I have
learned alot just from this one guitar. Ricks suggestion of geting a cheap
POS and letting it be your playground for learning new skills is a great
idea. I think sometimes things may come accross as rude or abrupt but
really its just the voice of experience maybe with a little bit of
fustration...especially if you hear the same questions over and over. I
think everyone just needs to remember we all started somewhere....


If someone has truth but not love they are a clanging cymbal....

your message will be heard but how well is up to you..

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

Where I started was sucking up every scrap of information I could find and th

en by practicing my new found skills over and over again. If someone wants to build guitars without knowing the first thing about fretwork, they're likely to run into problems like this. It's unlikely that those problems can be cured over the Internet by a lot of talk.

Learn how to level frets. Do it. If that doesn't fix this guitar then rip those frets out, level that 'board, and do it again and again until you get it right. Everything you need to know to do this is available in books, on line, and in videos. They will provide much more clear information than you'll get here from just words unless someone chooses to do a fretwork tutorial with a ton of photos.

There's nothing rude nor insulting about talking about a fret job that isn't right. If anything has been insulted, it's the guitar. The job needs to be redone until it's right, and there is a mountain of information readily available to help solve this issue. If that truth is an insult to anyone, the we're all in deep dung.

Rick,

To address your comments, I admit I am probably guilty of not doing my homework (via Google, etc.) and trying to find out what could be causing the buzzing I was experiencing. I do not have an experienced luthier in my area that I can spend time with, and even if I did, I have a family and small kids that I owe my time to more than a hobby. I did not find your initial post offensive, but only somewhat unrealistic. Not everyone is in the position to seek out and spend time with a luthier, or even has the time to devote hours to this hobby, art, craft, whateveryouwanttocallit.

The purpose of my post was to describe a problem and solicit responses as to what could be the cause of the problem. That's more difficult to find answers to than how to dress and level frets. Once I knew the problem was with the frets, I was able to find many Fretting 101 tutorials on the web.

You are indeed correct, we all would definitely benefit from spending more time learning the craft. I wish I had more than the 15-30 minutes a day that I sometimes get. As I said before, I just don't. My family comes first, but I don't think that should prevent me from learning, here and elsewhere, as much as I can, and ask questions of those more knowledgeable. Besides, isn't contributing here kind of like spending time with an Official Luthier :)?

Rick, and everyone else, your advice and technical knowledge are greatly appreciated. No need for anyone to get their dander up :).

My problem has, it appears, been solved. After initially leveling the frets, I did still have some buzzing. But I strung the guitar back up, and it seems to have settled some because this morning, the buzzing was gone. I did have about 3/32" at the low E, and 2/32" at the high e strings, so it looks like I've gotten the action right where it needs to be.

Thanks everyone, and I do mean everyone. We don't have to be self-congratulatory orgy of irrelevance, but respect for everyone's unique situation never hurts :).

Sorry,
but i agree with Rick. The Hobbiest mentality that has seemingly grown here( I say "seemingly" because it a few loudly spoken individuals that claim to speak for everyone) is chasing off many professional builders. I have spoken to many of them and they have confidentially stated that they don't bother posting or participating because of the general lack of professional topics/discussion.

There also seems to be a childish cry of "hurt feelings" that comes up everytime some one doesn't like what some else says.

Should we be rude and hurtful of course not. I don't think Rick was either...he gave the person seeking advice his professional opinion. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

As anyone who has followed these forums for some years have noticed, this is not the first time the "tone of voice" in Rick Turner's posts has caused a bit of controversy. The guy is straight forward and opinionated, but he knows what he is talking about.

[QUOTE=burbank] ...
But please refrain from blustering in here with your dogged opinions when they don't contribute to the discussion at hand. [/QUOTE]

Well, I certainly appreciate Mr. Turner's opinions and I hope that he will continue to share them with the rest of us. Remember that they are only that; his opinions. You don't have to agree with him, so don't make him go away because you dislike what he has to say or how he says it. Besides, wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed on everything? Stick around Rick!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I posted the following on the "rice thread" earlier this morning. It seems like it might be equally as appropriate here as well!

"I can't speak for any other builders on the forum, but personally, I did setups and enhancements on 5 guitars before I ever even thought of building a guitar. Even that was nowhere near enough to acquire the kind of confidence to take into the building world. But it did serve to convince me that this was far more complex than I ever imagined and helped to promote a healthy sense of humility.

And once I decided to consider building, I bought a bunch of scrap components from Martin so that I could practice as many techniques as possible. I ended up being able to fret...and re-fret ebony fingerboards. I learned how to glue FBs to necks...how to level them...how to introduce relief. I learned how to glue braces whth HHG ...and also learned how to remove them. I even finished an entire top with rattle can lacquer to convince myself that I could. All of the above took about 2 years...and during that time, I was reading everything I could get my hands on as well as studying FRETS.com and lurking on forums.

And after this self-imposed apprentice program I took the plunge and quickly realized that I still was in way over my head. Had it not been for the generous help of friends like John Hall and Mario as well as other folks on the forums, I would have failed miserably. Maybe I'm just a slow learner.

So...this is a long-winded way of saying that I whole-heartedly agree with Rick. In my opinion, Rick is a welcomed addition to our forum. We haven't had such a no-BS taskmaster since Mario left and I believe that the void has caused the forum to become sloppy.

While it's true that it may not be possible to do a classic apprenticeship such as described in Christian's original post,there are a lot of lessons a rookie can learn before tackling the building of an entire guitar. In my case, it taught me a lot more than merely practicing a technique...it taught me patience and a healthy respect for the skills required to build a quality instrument.

That has also has carried over to showing a healthy
respect for the seasoned veteran who takes time from his very busy schedule and chooses to give back to the luthier community by posting on our forum.

So let's sit back and learn...feel free to ask questions but develop a thick skin for the answers that may reveal how inadequate our skills and experience may really be. Often times the best teachers don't give a student "the answer". Instead, they promote a spirit and drive to experiment and try alternatives that when compared against a known, can open up totally new paradigms. The best students find their own answers. And I also believe that the best builders gained their confidence by having a humble respect for the craft, patience, attention to detail and hard work.

Thanks for joining us, Rick."

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com