Official Luthiers Forum!

By the way Rick, I'm still hoping to see those pictures you talked about posting showing the back and side bracing you said you were working on last weekend.

Rick, you just don’t get it!

We’re not talking whether someone should learn the basics, know their tools and how they work or what wood does or doesn’t do under various conditions. Etc. etc.

WE KNOW WE NEED TO KNOW THAT!

What we’re talking about here are human skills, which go far beyond the skills in building a guitar.

Here’s something that happened to me a few years back when I built my first guitar. I know very well and personally a master guitar builder in the true sense. When I asked him to help me with the neck to body dove tail joint he took the time in his shop to explain the details. He also took the time to recap and let me document the process, valuable time to him and more so to me. He also took the time to look at my workmanship and the guitar in general. And the reason I still build today is because of what he said at the end of our time, “It’s better than my first guitar”.

Every time I work in my shop or help someone build their first guitar I remember those words and push to do the same. The people who have build with me have all built a better guitar then my first one. I still have that first guitar and play it regularly; it’s my “ugly duckling.”

We’re talking encouragement and understanding the human dynamics when it comes to parting knowledge to further the craft of guitar building. Without it, it would be left to machines.

How to do rationalize your comments, ” Maybe nothing.. …but I can just call him or email him off-line and not have to deal with a lot of noise.” Or , “Beginners are made very welcome, but the folks over there do not suffer fools lightly.”

It appears we do!

My grandfather was wrong.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

Hey guys! Lets all go have a brewski and play a game of pool! I'd bet dollars to donuts in the real world we'd all get along like brothers! And I for one cannot wait to meet some of you at Healdsburg this year. Matter of fact I told Brock today that HGF is about all I have been thinking about! I have a list a mile long of builders that have inspired me for years that I am excited to meet starting with:

Lance McCollum,
Hank Mauel
My #1 Mark Blanchard, who set me stright on rosette design years ago :-)
Rick Turner
Rick Davis,
The lovely Kathy Wingert,
Paul McGill who I credit with opening my mind to creative use of sapwood.
This is just to name a few, some that were VERY instrumental in getting me started off on the right foot! I will never forget the 2 + hours Kathy spent on the phone with me late one night making sure I got the intonation on my #1 just right! THAT is kindness above and beyond the call of duty! Its also a great model for the kindness that I would love to see more of here.

SO, I say lets drop the abrasive disagreements, try to understand that there are many personalities here, and many different philosophy as to how we do what we do. What is right for one, may be wrong for another. But like I said, at the end of the day, I bet we would all have a hoot of a time if we were actually face to face chatting about what we love! Guitar Building!

There, thats my 2 cents

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Does anyone remember the movie and the subsequent TV series, "The Paper Chase"? John Houseman's character was a stern and tough taskmaster, but the people in his classes learned more than they would have had they been in a feel-good environment. A lack of rigor in pursuing skills like we need in lutherie does nobody any good...not even the hobbyist who just wants a pretty guitar to show off.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Does anyone remember the movie and the subsequent TV series, "The Paper Chase"? John Houseman's character was a stern and tough taskmaster, but the people in his classes learned more than they would have had they been in a feel-good environment. A lack of rigor in pursuing skills like we need in lutherie does nobody any good...not even the hobbyist who just wants a pretty guitar to show off.[/QUOTE]

Hey, Rick,

Please. Enough.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Wow!  This thread is buzzin'!!

I am a 54 year old Mechanical Engineer working in the space program who has played guitar for almost 40 years.  I gained an interest in repairing/building guitars when a 12 string I own (before I learned to appreciate well made guitars) split the bridge, bridge plate and an x-brace.  I have yet to build a guitar and at my age and income level do not anticipate pursuing a career in Lutherie.  But, I want to be challenged to acheive the best I can do as I build and repair a few.  Not necessarily in that order.

I appreciate the opportunity to learn anything about guitars and their repair and construction.  I have the means to accumulate tools, books and instruments (my wife is incredibly great about this).  But, I don't have the time to worry about my feelings getting hurt.  I found this forum several weeks ago and was intrigued by the openess of its contributors, even the newbies, the contributions of the "paid my dues" group and all between the two.

Rick, I was in my local music store the other day when a customer brought in a cheap guitar that had been injured.  The owner told her that it was not worth fixing.  I should have tackled her and offered to see if I could fix it.........   I realized then that just trying to fix that excuse, I mean guitar, would have raised my skill level.

I would like to make one point about this whole discussion: Give more than you take!

LanceK said: "SO, I say lets drop the abrasive disagreements, try to understand that there are many personalities here, and many different philosophy as to how we do what we do. What is right for one, may be wrong for another. But like I said, at the end of the day, I bet we would all have a hoot of a time if we were actually face to face chatting about what we love! Guitar Building! ,...."  Lance, thanks for all you do and I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Life is too short to live without friends.

Each of us has something to give and each of us has something to gain from this forum.  Some will give more than others.  Let's appreciate the content of the message!  Each is at a different stage and path of career.  I hope I can learn from Rick Turner as well as Hesh.

BTW, Hesh, will that fretboard pictured above be framed and mounted?  Seriously, thank you for your humor and thank you for staying with us.  I have learned form you, too.

Let's take our craft seriously but not ourselves!

Nice to know I'm only missing the usual drama when I get caught up in other interests for a few months!



Andrew

The Thread That Wouldn't Die !!!


[Lance,

Put this thing out of it's misery, please !!!



Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Ron, you just kept the thread alive by one more post!

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Does anyone remember the movie and the subsequent TV series, "The Paper Chase"? John Houseman's character was a stern and tough taskmaster, but the people in his classes learned more than they would have had they been in a feel-good environment. A lack of rigor in pursuing skills like we need in lutherie does nobody any good...not even the hobbyist who just wants a pretty guitar to show off.[/QUOTE]

My first job as a scientist was for an extremely tough task master - she was awarded a medal in Neuroscience from the Pasteur Institute, so we're talking world class scientist here. Sure she was hard to take at times (just about everyone hated her), but I was well trained and stayed with her as long as I could. She was so tough and rigorous in her work that none of my subsequent bosses have measured up to my standards 'cause they'd never stand up to hers. It might not be fun at times, but that's how the bar gets raised.

As to letting threads die or closing them 'cause you don't like what's being said - that, in my opinion, is pure chicken sh*t.

Well, looks like I've created quite a "buzz" this this thread. Unfortunately, it looks like it wasn't an appropriate question, since it generated over three pages of responses, and probably 99% are not related to the question I asked.

I'll take my newbie questions elsewhere, at least until I can ask "Official Luthier" type questions. Sorry for all the pain this has caused some here.

Singing off,
Mark

Not your fault Mark, you, and everyone else, has the right to ask any question they desire, newbie or veteran.  However, others also have the right to take the discussion in any direction they choose, and sometimes it becomes mired in insults, insinuation, and hurt feelings, or egos.  Any time you have this many people participating in a forum, there are going to be egos involved, some of them bigger than others, but that shouldn't get in the way of getting an answer to your question.  If 101 questions aren't allowed, the forum will lose a lot of people and the reputation of generosity and sharing it currently has. That would be a sad day.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Mark,

I beg to differ. It was an entirely appropriate question. It generated a lot of positive, and, I believe, constructive responses before it was hijacked. Sometimes threads just sort blow up through no fault of the original poster. Just the nature of the beast.

There have been other factors at work on the OLF the last several days. Contentious posts in other threads on topics similar to those that have been injected in this thread, though they were not directly connected, so I wouldn't say you caused any of this, rather you were more of a bystander.

I'm speaking for myself here, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the majority of members here would agree with me.

Hope you stick around. I'd like to see the OLF continue as JJ put it, as a one-room schoolhouse.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

mark, i would encourage you not to let the raucous bleatings emanating from a mob of delicate egos deter you from participating in the forum.

your questions was valid, and i hope you learned something from the serious replies and can disregard the unedifying responses from those who chose to make personal attacks on a serious, vastly experienced luthier of deserved stature rather than offer anything constructive.

Maybe we should have an information resource guide here with suggestions on where to go to do "homework" and possibly reviews of the books, videos, magazine articles, apprenticeships, and schools where folks can get a good grounding in the basics.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Maybe we should have an information resource guide here with suggestions on where to go to do "homework" and possibly reviews of the books, videos, magazine articles, apprenticeships, and schools where folks can get a good grounding in the basics. [/QUOTE]
Great Idea! Or maybe we could develop a forum that people could come and ask questions, Oh, wait, that's the OLF.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Maybe we should have an information resource guide here with suggestions on where to go to do "homework" and possibly reviews of the books, videos, magazine articles, apprenticeships, and schools where folks can get a good grounding in the basics. [/QUOTE]

That's an interesting idea, and worth exploring,but....

Reviews of books, videos, courses: Quite a few of the FamousRespectedLuthiers (TM) here have shown that they can't handle the least criticism, or negative comments about their offerings. Generally a snit ensues, with disparaging comments about the unworthiness of anyone who had the temerity to criticise. We really don't need any more bunfights here! Perhaps the reviews should be accepted only from FamousRespectedLuthiers (TM), so it's all kept at the appropriate level?

There's another well-known online guitar forum where most reasonable questions from beginners are answered with a standard snippy response; "Check the archives". Do we need to duplicate that experience here?

It's also worth keeping in mind that "books, videos, magazine articles, apprenticeships, and schools" are income-producing activities by FamousRespectedLuthiers (TM), and any comments (positive or negative) could affect the cash flow of respected professionals. I'm not sure it's something that should be undertaken lightly- especially in the lawsuit-happy culture of 21st-century America.

Also, with a few of notable exceptions (Alan Carruth, Tony Karol, and some others) many FamousRespectedLuthiers (TM) here keep the interesting details of their guitars (which could be used to 'raise the standards') completely secret, even swearing their acolytes to secrecy. Just check the responses to the many questions about specifics on bracing and top thickness and you will get the picture. So if we eliminate 'beginner discussions', and stop admiring 'bling' projects, just what should we talk about?


Cheers

John

I created one of the first guitar-building sites on the web (back in the Mesozoic days of 1995 - and I haven't updated in almost 10 years), with my personal thoughts on the books available back then. It's interesting to see what was available back then as compared to today. The problem with reviews would be the level of the knowledge of the reviewer, and the fact that what is useless to one person can be treasure to someone else.

One suggestion I might offer, would be to create a forum here focused solely on improving the work we all do in this craft. We get posts like that in the main forum, but it might be more useful to collect that in one place.

Ok, we have all had plenty to say about this. This thread needs to end. It looks like nothing more productive is going to come from it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=drfuzz]
One suggestion I might offer, would be to create a forum here focused solely on improving the work we all do in this craft. We get posts like that in the main forum, but it might be more useful to collect that in one place.[/QUOTE]

Kevin-
What do you mean? I don't understand.

A place where the famous can critique our work (appearance only, obviously)?

It seems to me that unless one is blind, the extraordinary level of craftsmanship displayed in pictures of completed guitars here must surely spur us all to higher standards of woodworking- with or without comments from others. I certainly find it humbling.

Other aspects of building (sound and playability) are probably more important (as Rick Turner has 'pointed out') but can't be evaluated in an online forum.

I thought the whole OLF was a forum for improving our work, in one way or another.

Cheers
John