Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi everyone,

I'm soooo close to finishing my second build, but am having an issue with the setup on it. Actually, I guess you can say the building is done, now I'm trying to make it playable. Anyway...

I strung it up last night for the first time, and it played great with open chords. However, any time I play a barre chords I get a buzzing. E.g., for a Bm, I'm getting buzzing in the 3rd and 4th strings, at the 4th fret.

I have the truss rod basically all the way loose. The neck is actually fairly straight. I made a new saddle, and only lowered it a little bit, thinking a slightly higher saddle (than the one I originally made) would solve the problem.   The new, higher, saddle didn't eliminate the problem -- the buzzing is still ther.

I'm not sure where to go now. Make a third saddle and don't lower it at all? I can't adjust the neck, as the truss rod is all the way loose. I don't think it's a problem with the nut, because the buzzing only happens higher on the neck. It doesn't happen for the standard open chords: D, C, G, etc.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Have you leveled and dressed the frets?

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=David Collins] Have you leveled and dressed the frets?[/QUOTE]

Um, no. What's involved in that. Would that solve a buzzing problem? (Please be kind and gentle, this is only my second).

I actually had one guitar that the truss rod was loose as he says, only the buzz was coming from the truss rod. I had to turn the rod just enough to bring a touch of tension to it in order to stop the buzz. It was the truss rod buzzing inside the neck.

It would be one of the first things I would try...

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I'm with Ken, I think the truss rod is buzzing.
Then again, if you haven't even leveled the frets, you likely have a high one that is causing buzzing. Don't worry about the saddle at this point. Get the frets level and tighten the truss rod a touch and see what happens.

1) did you level the fret board before fretting? if the fret board is not level trying to get a good action is difficult.

2) this should be done with the truss rod having no effect on the neck, though as was pointed out it should have enough tension to stop it rattling. did you use a two way or one way truss rod.

3) if you have ensured that the truss rod is not rattling, you can locate the buzzing frets with a multimeter using the ohms function. clip one lead between the saddle and the pin, pluck the buzzing string, and touch the suspect frets with the other probe. the buzzing fret will send the ohms reading down toward zero. an analogue meter is best for this test, but a digital will work but is much harder to interpret.

i suspect that you will have to level the frets anyway.

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

I actually had one guitar that the truss rod was loose as he says, only the buzz was coming from the truss rod. I had to turn the rod just enough to bring a touch of tension to it in order to stop the buzz. It was the truss rod buzzing inside the neck.

It would be one of the first things I would try...

[/QUOTE]
Well, I actually have tried that. I did tighten the truss rod up a good bit but no avail, the buzz actually got worse.

Michael:

What a great tip. I've never heard this one before. Thanks!   (Not hijacking the thread, ms960, hope you get that buzzing tracked down).

Bill

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] 1) did you level the fret board before fretting? if the fret board is not level trying to get a good action is difficult.

2) this should be done with the truss rod having no effect on the neck, though as was pointed out it should have enough tension to stop it rattling. did you use a two way or one way truss rod.

3) if you have ensured that the truss rod is not rattling, you can locate the buzzing frets with a multimeter using the ohms function. clip one lead between the saddle and the pin, pluck the buzzing string, and touch the suspect frets with the other probe. the buzzing fret will send the ohms reading down toward zero. an analogue meter is best for this test, but a digital will work but is much harder to interpret.

i suspect that you will have to level the frets anyway.

[/QUOTE]
Yes, I did level the fretboard before fretting. The truss rod is a one-way I believe. It's a Martin-type truss rod.

I agree, it looks like a good fret levelling is in order. Can anyone give a quick summary of fret-leveling procedures?

Thanks.

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]1


3) if you have ensured that the truss rod is not rattling, you can locate the buzzing frets with a multimeter using the ohms function. clip one lead between the saddle and the pin, pluck the buzzing string, and touch the suspect frets with the other probe. the buzzing fret will send the ohms reading down toward zero. an analogue meter is best for this test, but a digital will work but is much harder to interpret.



i suspect that you will have to level the frets anyway.



[/QUOTE]

That is an awesome tip. I never thought of this, and being an electrical contractor you would think I should have.  Oh well, I do this to get my mind off of my day job anyways!  Anyhoo, meters won't be a problem for me!

Playability is one of the three keys to a great custom guitar (along with tone, and fit and finish). Fretwork and proper setup is how you get playability. Buzzing indicates a poor job of fretwork or playability, so it's worth learning to do it right.

Here's how you build the guitar right in the first place so you don't get buzz.

1. After you fret the guitar, with no nut in place, take a colored marker (I like red 'cause it's easy to see) and mark the top of each fret all the way along the fret.

2. Take a flat mill file and run it along the frets (going along the length of the fretbard). You should see all or part of the red marks go away on some, but probaby not all, of the frets where you filed. The ones that have the red filed away are the high ones, and the ones that still show red are the low ones.

3. Keep going until the file touches all of the frets as you file along the length of the fretboard. This must be true across the full width of the fretboard --- the frets may be level where the high E string goes, but that doesn't mean they're level where the A string goes. Once it looks good, I like to re-apply the marker to all the frets and check it all with the mill file one more time.

4. Once the marker-test tells you they are level, you may want to double-check, especially if this is your first time. Take something that has a relatively short straight edge --- just long enough to stretch across the first 3 or 4 frets. A small try square works, or maybe the short edge of a scraper, or whatever you have that's straight. Put the straight edge across three or four frets and see if the straight edge rocks or, on the other hand, if it's touching all three. If it rocks, then you have a high fret and it's back to filing. You need to check all the way across the width of the fretboard and all the way up and down the fretboard.

5. Now that the frets are level, you probably need to re-crown them so that the intonation will be proper. You can buy fret-crowning files, or you can use a 3-sided file with the corners grounded away so they don't scratch up your fretboard while you are filing the frets.

Now, I like to take a sanding block and run along the frets a couple times with some 600 grit sandpaper, and then with some 1000 grit. Then I get after them with some 0000 steel wool till they look pretty.

Now your fretboard is level, but you still have a ways to go.

Install the nut and string up the guitar to pitch. Put a capo on the first fret for the next few steps. That takes the nut out of the equation --- get the nut proper later on. Fret the sixth string at the 14th fret and check to see how much relief the neck has. Personally, I like just a few thousandths --- enough that I know there isn't a backbow, but not enough that it affects playability. Adjust the truss rod as necessary to get the relief how you like (reducing string tension each time before you do so).

With the truss rod adjusted, and still having a capo on the first fret, adjust the saddle to get the action just a little higher than you ultimately want it. I say a little higher because things always shift around the first few weeks after you string up a guitar, and I prefer to have some room to work with just in case. So leave it just a little high.

Now, play each string at ever fret to make sure you aren't getting any buzz (still with the capo on). If you are getting a buzz on a string, keep checking that string one fret higher and higher until the buzz stops. You should go from a fairly clear buzz to no buzz in just one fret. The fret you are fretting when the buzz disappears is the high fret. Use your straight edge to do the rocking test just to make sure. If it's just one fret that's high, I usually just work it with a triangle file until the buzz stops. If you have lots of problems, you may not have done a good enough job with the mill file, and it's time to go back to step one.

Once all the strings play great at all frets with no buzz, it's time to get the nut filed properly. Remove the capo, and file each string slot until it's just a little bit higher than you like it. Again, things will move around the first month or so after this guitar is strung up for the first time, and so you want to have a little room for adjustment down the road.

Play the heck out of it for a month, then adjust the saddle again, then the nut. You should have a very playable guitar.

[QUOTE=Kelby] Playability is one of the three keys to a great custom guitar (along with tone, and fit and finish). Fretwork and proper setup is how you get playability. Buzzing indicates a poor job of fretwork or playability, so it's worth learning to do it right.

Here's how you build the guitar right in the first place so you don't get buzz.

1. After you fret the guitar, with no nut in place, take a colored marker (I like red 'cause it's easy to see) and mark the top of each fret all the way along the fret.

2. Take a flat mill file and run it along the frets (going along the length of the fretbard). You should see all or part of the red marks go away on some, but probaby not all, of the frets where you filed. The ones that have the red filed away are the high ones, and the ones that still show red are the low ones.

3. Keep going until the file touches all of the frets as you file along the length of the fretboard. This must be true across the full width of the fretboard --- the frets may be level where the high E string goes, but that doesn't mean they're level where the A string goes. Once it looks good, I like to re-apply the marker to all the frets and check it all with the mill file one more time.

4. Once the marker-test tells you they are level, you may want to double-check, especially if this is your first time. Take something that has a relatively short straight edge --- just long enough to stretch across the first 3 or 4 frets. A small try square works, or maybe the short edge of a scraper, or whatever you have that's straight. Put the straight edge across three or four frets and see if the straight edge rocks or, on the other hand, if it's touching all three. If it rocks, then you have a high fret and it's back to filing. You need to check all the way across the width of the fretboard and all the way up and down the fretboard.

5. Now that the frets are level, you probably need to re-crown them so that the intonation will be proper. You can buy fret-crowning files, or you can use a 3-sided file with the corners grounded away so they don't scratch up your fretboard while you are filing the frets.

Now, I like to take a sanding block and run along the frets a couple times with some 600 grit sandpaper, and then with some 1000 grit. Then I get after them with some 0000 steel wool till they look pretty.

Now your fretboard is level, but you still have a ways to go.

Install the nut and string up the guitar to pitch. Put a capo on the first fret for the next few steps. That takes the nut out of the equation --- get the nut proper later on. Fret the sixth string at the 14th fret and check to see how much relief the neck has. Personally, I like just a few thousandths --- enough that I know there isn't a backbow, but not enough that it affects playability. Adjust the truss rod as necessary to get the relief how you like (reducing string tension each time before you do so).

With the truss rod adjusted, and still having a capo on the first fret, adjust the saddle to get the action just a little higher than you ultimately want it. I say a little higher because things always shift around the first few weeks after you string up a guitar, and I prefer to have some room to work with just in case. So leave it just a little high.

Now, play each string at ever fret to make sure you aren't getting any buzz (still with the capo on). If you are getting a buzz on a string, keep checking that string one fret higher and higher until the buzz stops. You should go from a fairly clear buzz to no buzz in just one fret. The fret you are fretting when the buzz disappears is the high fret. Use your straight edge to do the rocking test just to make sure. If it's just one fret that's high, I usually just work it with a triangle file until the buzz stops. If you have lots of problems, you may not have done a good enough job with the mill file, and it's time to go back to step one.

Once all the strings play great at all frets with no buzz, it's time to get the nut filed properly. Remove the capo, and file each string slot until it's just a little bit higher than you like it. Again, things will move around the first month or so after this guitar is strung up for the first time, and so you want to have a little room for adjustment down the road.

Play the heck out of it for a month, then adjust the saddle again, then the nut. You should have a very playable guitar.[/QUOTE]

Wow -- awesome instructions! I'm going to print that out and put it with my stuff to keep handy.

Thanks very much. That explains in detail what I need to do. I've obviously got a lot more to learn! Appreciate the time you took to type that out.

Mark

Great tutorial Kelby. I'll throw it into the Tutorial page.

Cheers

_________________

------------------------------------------------------
Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about building guitars (an Official Luthier...) should spend several years in the trenches of retail guitar repair.   To build a guitar and not know the first thing about fret work is like building a car and not knowing that the tires need to be inflated or building a sailboat and not knowing how to tie a knot.   Fretwork is absolutely the most basic stuff there is, and knowing how to do it should either precede building a guitar or you should be building under the watchful eye of an "Official Luthier."

Her is another tutorial on Fretting by Tim McKnight from the "Jigs and Tool Section" of the "Official Luthier's" forum. Kelby gave you excellent instructions but sometimes a few pictures help out. You should also pick up these DVD's or book from StewMac.

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about building guitars (an Official Luthier...) should spend several years in the trenches of retail guitar repair.   To build a guitar and not know the first thing about fret work is like building a car and not knowing that the tires need to be inflated or building a sailboat and not knowing how to tie a knot.   Fretwork is absolutely the most basic stuff there is, and knowing how to do it should either precede building a guitar or you should be building under the watchful eye of an "Official Luthier."[/QUOTE]

 

Wow?! Did someone put something in you Wheaties or what?

You are entitled to your opinion, standoffish as it is. Some of us build for ourselves and the sake of learning something new. I personally feel like your rant may discourage people from asking valid questions, out of the fear of sounding ignorant and getting comments like yours. And that is just too bad. The guy said it was only his second build and he was seeking help because he was unfamiliar with an aspect of troubleshooting.

Personally I have had an infatuation with the guitar since I was 10 years old, and happen to be a college grad with a job that unfortunately has nothing to do with guitar. I am still building even though I never had the opportunity, and probably never will, to "work in the trenches of retail repair."(After all some of us have to eat, and retail repair isn't always the highest paying job.) You obviously had no other intent in making such a comment other than to express your own unconscious dissatisfaction with something.....   

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about building guitars (an Official Luthier...) [QUOTE]

Whats an "Offical Luthier"??

OLF = Official Luthiers Forum
ULO = Unoffical Luthiers Forum

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about building guitars (an Official Luthier...) [QUOTE]

There will now be two forums:

OOLF = The Original Official Luthiers Forum
UULF = The Unoriginal Unoffical Luthiers Forum

All members kindly peel off to appropriate forum.

To echo Rick's comments, a good repair tech is much more prepared to
be a good builder than vice versa. Most people really want to jump right
directly in to the more romantic side of lutherie of crafting their own
instruments from scratch, before they even know how to set one up. A
vast majority of the hand built instruments I see - even those with
astounding tone and near impeccable craftsmanship - suffer from the
same problems in fret work and setup.

I strongly recommend to anyone who wants to build instruments that
they first focus on learning how to set them up properly. Fret work, nuts,
saddles and setup seem to be the biggest stumbling blocks for many.
Unfortunately it can be one of the more difficult facets of the trade to
master without a few years of dealing directly with customers. Honing
your setups to meet the needs of demanding players is a constantly
ongoing process, but you can at least get a good foundation fairly
quickly. Get some cheap guitars to practice fret work and setups on, and
if you do not have a direct mentor there are at least several good books
and resources (such as forums like this one). Hideo Kamimoto's book is
still one of the better ones for setup in my opinion. Dan Erlewine's "Guitar
Player Repair Guide" is also a good reference when starting up.

My apprentice has already had six months of formal training and built
three wonderful guitars, but after the first three+ months in my shop I am
still drilling him hard on fret work and setups. Although he is anxious to
build more instruments, I have no intention of moving that way until I am
confident he at least knows exactly how the end result should look, feel
and play. His work is good right now, but I can still pick through and find
room for improvement in the fret work, as well as final tweaking of
setups.

I was about to toss in another analogy, but I think Rick's sailboat/knot
tying one pretty much hit it right on square.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Well stated, Rick and David. Thanks for sharing your wisdom born out of experience!

A bit more respect for such experience and a bit more humility will go a long way in the learning experience.

I sure hope another great resource hasn't been chased away from the forum ...we need all of the great builders as possible to post and stay on the OLF.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I would welcome the chance to spend time with an Official Luthier to really learn the trade. However, time constraints, and the lack of luthiers in my area make this not a reality, at present.   So I go forth and do the best I can on my own, as well as tapping into the wealth of knowledge on this and other forums.

I have leveled the frets, according to the wonderful tutorial presented above. Some of the frets were indeed high. After leveling, I can run a straight edge along the frets and can't find any discernable high or low points. However, I am still experiencing the same buzz in the same location. Didn't seem to help my problem. I haven't crowned the frets after leveling them, but don't think that will in itself fix the problem.

So, what to do now? The neck is straight, the truss rod is loose (not to the point that it rattles), and the frets have been leveled. Higher saddle at this point?

Thanks again,
Mark

Two posts made it in while I was typing mine, so I'll add two quick points.
John, I know Rick's intention was not to discourage, and I didn't see that
as a likely interpretation by ms960 (sorry for the informality ms, I don't
know your actual name ). It seems he is coming here for advise, and
sounded as though he was open to receiving any constructive criticism.
Years of hard experience may not be possible for everyone, but there if
you want to proceed as either an enthusiast or a professional in this trade
then you have to know where to start out. Setups, nuts and saddles,
fretwork.

And Martin, I know your post was rather toungue-in-cheek, and I know
that you know that Rick's was too, but I have to sat that if I were to ever
type "official luthier", I would always put it in quotes too. That, along with
"certified luthier". Those just crack me up. I'm still trying to find the
internationally recognized governing panel that makes issues these titles,
or what the ISO 9004 certification process includes for our trade.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Hi Mark,

Depending on how much material was removed, crowning the frets can
certainly play a role in buzzing. Do you have specific measurements you can
share with us regarding the setup? Is the neck absolutlely dead straight? Are
you familiar with setting nut height by pressing past the second fret and
checking string clearance above the third? After those two are established
then a measurement of string clearance above the 12th fret can be useful.


Isn't troubleshooting a blast???

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.