Official Luthiers Forum!

I just discovered the OLF and am amazed at the expertise, craftsmanship, and information available. I have read EVERY post for 6 pages back since last night and just get more excited about guitar building with each new thread and pictures of your creations so I thought I'd add mine (thumbnails at bottom).

I recognize a couple of names from other forums so I hope these pics aren't too repetitive for some of you. I built this from a Martin Jumbo Kit. But it is actually a cross between a 0000/M and a Jumbo as I cut the body down to a 4 1/2" depth at the lower bout. Typically the Jumbo is 4 7/8" - same as a Martin Dread and the 0000/M is typically 4 1/8" deep with the same body shape as the Jumbo. So this fits right in the middle as I am a couch player and the dreads are too deep for me but I wanted something different than an M.

I was trying to get a sweeter, brighter tone than my 000-16SRGT Martin which is warm, warm, warm, and surprisigly the guitar does just that. It really sings in the mid-higher registers, maybe a bit too much, but I think it is just the contrast with my other guitar. Time should change things a bit and different strings but very pleased it makes noise at all.

It also fits my body just as planned. The thinner profile is very comfortable and the volume and sustain are just fine. I'm planning to build another out of rosewood with the same depth and bracing to hear the differences the one wood might make.

I cut the slot head from the stock paddle head and the red wood you see is Padauk and the lamination you see on the back of the slot head is there becase I didn't know that paddle heads are thinner than slots. One of many pimples and detail mistakes that don't show in the pics but I am really pleased with the results.

I used MinWax quick dry polyurethane for the finish and I hope it hangs in there. So far so good but have never heard of it being used before. It seems so hard to have verything on hand as the job progreses and I found my self with a free weekend and no KTM-9 or nitro so down to the hardware store I went. I'll probably try the KTM-9 next time.

About the bracing. I adopted (stole?) a couple of different ideas for what you see and wish I knew more about such things to let you know if it worked or not or which parts worked and which parts didn't but it sounds fine. The tone has changed dramatically in the last month and don't know which part or piece contributed to the change but I understand that is normal and look forward to playing every night to see what change has taken place.

So a hearty hello and a thank you for your great forum and I am looking forward to participating.

Larry

Click thumbails to enlarge - sorry about the bad light in the pics.










LarryH38720.9311458333

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Larry, Welcome to the OLF, great to have you here. Very nice guitar. Great job on the first. The min wax poly sure looks good in the pics.

One thing I noticed on your pics, there is no bridge plate on the top. Did you do this purposly or did you glue one on after these pics were taken? I hope it was the later as that spruce won't stand up long without a bridge plate.Rod True38720.948587963

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Looks good, good job.

The great thing about building guitars is that no design is sacred as we all are evolving our designs based on our interpretations of things we have seen or havent seen in guitars from other builders.

Some classical guitar builders will build the same shape guitar of the same dimensions for their entire building career and yet each instrument will have its own voice and hopefully improve as the builders skill and attention to fine details increases.

Well, it looks like you are hooked now...so what is the next one going to look like?

Nice! I like the holes in the bracing. What was your inspiration on that?

[QUOTE=Rod True]
One thing I noticed on your pics, there is no bridge plate on the top. Did you do this purposly or did you glue one on after these pics were taken? I hope it was the later as that spruce won't stand up long without a bridge plate.[/QUOTE]

Glued on after the pics Rod.

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[QUOTE=RCoates] Nice! I like the holes in the bracing. What was your inspiration on that? [/QUOTE]

http://www.kinscherff.com/BracingSys.html
LarryH38721.0037847222

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Welcome Larry and nice effort, looks like a beauty.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Whew, thanks Larry.

Jamie has a very cool idea on weight reduction with the holes drilled through the braces doesn't he.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Rod True] Whew, thanks Larry.

Jamie has a very cool idea on weight reduction with the holes drilled through the braces doesn't he.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, don't know if I should thank him or apologize but when I saw the holes it seemed to make such good sense. I also shfted the braces forward, and used an idea from Dana Bourgeois to use a single scallop on the bass side of the X-brace. So I basically tried every X brace design trick I could think of and with more experience would probably use less and less as I gain more confidence in the tone of a guitar.

But as bazzar a decision as it was the guitar has the real sweet tone I was designing for. Dumb luck, but really fun experimenting.LarryH38721.0322569444

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Amazing for a 1st Guitar. With holes in the X braces, you clearly have done
some research on bracing principles. With my first I just wanted to get it
together. No way to think about bracing and tone with the first. You are way
ahead of the game.
Welcome to the Club!!!!
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Very Nice. I like those holes. I also like the look of the Padauk. It really stands out. Great Job!

Hi Larry,
Welcome aboard!!!
Nothing like an intro to the OLF with pictures of your first born.
A very nice guitar indeed.
Nice to have you here!!

See you on the OLF.

WalterK

Beautiful work, Larry! Welcome to the OLF.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Welcome Larry, and very cool first guitar! When I saw Kinscherff's bracing a few years ago, I emailed a photo to a luthier friend to try to get an opinion. He basically said "try it, if you want to find out." I was intrigued then, and it is a strong endorsement when someone other that the original builder confirms some findings.

Very cool!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Another welcome Larry.   Wonderful Guitar. I also like the holes in the braces. I wonder how much weight yu saved doing that? I am just bracing up me first. Actually just finished glueing the last of the top bracsa few minutes ago. I change the bridge plate, shaved a bit of the cross brace overlap and significantly reduced the size of the sound hole braces and that shaved a whole 3 grams off the weight (252 grams down to 249), it all counts though.

Looking forward to seeing more of your work!

Shane

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Canada

Excellent first one Larry! and welcome to the best place on earth for learning!

Ialso love tre baracing, how long did it take you to apply that finish to get it shining like that?

Serge

Good looking guitar Larry and very interesting bracing. If you can keep the braces both light and stiff at the same time you have taken a giant tonal step forward.

Welcome to the OLF.

John

Welcome to the OLF Larry!
Nice guitar! I have seen Jamies braces before and have always waned to expermint with the idea. Did you weight your braces before and after drilling to figure out how much weight was lost?

LanceK

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

   Good job Larry. Very nice.
   That bracing reminds me of a guy I knew when I was younger who wanted to make his mountain bike lighter. He drilled hundreds of little holes all over it. First jump he took, the thing crumpled like an aluminium can... Not that I'm suggesting that your guitar will collapse. You don't have that many holes on there. I think I might try that on my next... Cheers.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Here's another interesting approach to lightening the top braces from builder Kevin Ko.



Kevin explains: I am trying something different here. If you look closely at the photo, you will see that the main braces are "relieved". They have an "I-beam" cross section, with the spine being 3/32" thick. My past experience building homes lead me to this design. In home construction, we used engineered wooden "I-Beam" floor joists, which allows for longer spans between supports than typical dimensional lumber. The joist are also lighter and stiffer, but also more resilient. I thought that I could use this to brace a guitar top, hopefully giving me bracing with the strength of non-scalloped bracing, and the light weight of scalloped braces. I did some experimenting with design before I settled on this as meeting (Hopefully!!) both requirements. Here is another photo of the top bracing. The bracing pattern I used is symetrical like that used by Larrivee, Manzer and Laskin. Since I really love the sound of Larrivee guitars, I though this would be a good pattern to use for this experiment. You will also be able to see the bloodwood binding on the edge of the soundhole.Drew38721.3593518519

Very nice guitar Larry. And welcome to the forum. You couldn't find a better group of people. I admire your bravery in experimenting on your first build. Hope to see more of your work.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] Another welcome Larry.   Wonderful Guitar. I also like the holes in the braces. I wonder how much weight yu saved doing that? I am just bracing up me first. Actually just finished glueing the last of the top bracsa few minutes ago. I change the bridge plate, shaved a bit of the cross brace overlap and significantly reduced the size of the sound hole braces and that shaved a whole 3 grams off the weight (252 grams down to 249), it all counts though.

Looking forward to seeing more of your work!

Shane [/QUOTE]

Thanks to every one for all the great feedback.

Shane, Without any definetive measurements I cannot say how much 'dead' weight was saved, if by dead we mean how much less the guitar weighs because of the holes, but if there were such a thing as 'live' weight, meaning how much better the top may vibrate because of the mass missing from those brace areas, then I would say I have no real clue but the 'live weight' possibilities would better represent the intent of the 'lighter' bracing.

Hope that makes some sense and after looking at Jaimes braces they actually look a little 'heavier' (wider thicker and squared off) than a typical brace but they might vibrate as a lighter brace.

Apologies for pretending I know what I'm talking about but sure am willing to learn.

Larry

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[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] ......how long did it take you to apply that finish to get it shining like that?

Serge[/QUOTE]

Another thanks for the feedback and Serge I actually laughed out loud at your last question. Does forever sound like a reasonable answer?

It's funny how pictures posted in the way I posted those makes it look like a pretty professional job, but as many of you know the details of a first time guitar can look anything but professional and that is the case with this first effort.

I've heard it said that 'finishing' a guitar is really just beginning and in this case it couldn't be more true.

The time I can find in my schedule to actually work on a guitar is very limited and I found my self facing more than one weekend raring to go and not having planned to get a tool or finishes ordered the week before so there I was ready to start finishing the guitar with no Luthier Forum recommended product within 400 miles and 4 days shipping.

So I decided to try polyurethane. Started brushing on Zar clear gloss. Took DAYS to really harden for sanding which fit very poorly with my impatient nature and my desparate need to hear this first attempt.

So I tried Zar's quick dry urethane but the nozzles didn't work on 4 out of 5 cans so back to the hardware store and got some MinWax quick dry in a can and spray.

It was pretty easy to spray the top and back as the surfaces were horizontal but the sides were just one drip after another run after another drip. Then after letting the drips harden I would sand them off but then discovered that after prepping with thinner the finish under the drips had not hardened so the thinner actually wiped out the finish under the drip leaving a depression.

So I found these styrofoam disposable pads that are about 3" wide and 5 " long. I cut them into small pieces about 3/4" long x 3" wide which was a great size, and held just enough finish, for the sides and I 'padded' on the rest of a thinned down version of the finish on the sides. That technique was pretty cool actually and might try that again.

Whew.... So after a LOT of coats and a LOT of sanding I finally got there. Used 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000 wet r dry before hitting it with Maquiar's Scratch X (which is great stuff) and their polish. And THAT'S the the short version of the story. Not forever but quite a humbling adventure.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot to add that the slow dry urethane under the quick dry is just now really getting hard. NOT a recommended method.LarryH38721.4637962963

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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Larry that is a great guitar!

Your work tells me that you might be an engineer by profession? Just wondering.

Hesh[/QUOTE]

I resemble that remark!! Nah Hesh, I'm a general contractor turned desk jockey general contractor. Always liked to build but never really built anything as complex and detailed as a guitar. One of the most satisfying things I have done in my 52 years.

Larry

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