Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:09 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 6:33 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hey everyone. I have a simple question. I live in Tucson, AZ and I'm limited to using a screened-in garage to do all of my sawdust-making. It's very hard to maintain a satisfactory humidity level in that situation, especially always.

If I am building solid body guitars, can I store my wood and instruments in progress in a humidity-controlled area inside the house, bring it out to work on them for a few hours at a time, and then bring them back into storage without still suffering dire consequences?

All ideas are appreciated and I hope you all are having a great day!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 10:41 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm
Posts: 569
First name: Toonces
Last Name: the Cat
City: New Smyrna Beach
State: FL
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Yes, there is absolutely no issues with doing that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 11:19 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 951
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
There's no magic embedded into any one certain humidity level. If OP's instruments are staying close to where they're made, I think OP would save himself a whole lot of trouble if he'd let the wood stabilize in the ambient humidity level and commence building. I think trying to force a 40 percent humidity level on an instrument that's staying in Arizona or somewhere just as dry is the definition of an exercise in frustration.

_________________
Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 5:23 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
I'll be the naysayer. If what you build Ian ever moves as Peter rightly pointed out to another climate it could be problematic.

So my suggestion is use a quality, double action truss rod because necks move too with RH swings and a big swing from the building RH to a new RH can put a neck in back bow and make the instrument unplayable.

We see it every winter here in Michigan as the Martins, Collings, Taylors and Gibsons and others including solid body electrics lose their relief and start rattling or worse. With a double action rod this can be adjusted out. Without a double action rod and someone could be sol.

Also wanted to share an experience again that I have posted here before. When I was building acoustic guitars I took a braced top from my RH controlled shop, got myself a scotch on the rocks and headed for my back deck to so some final sanding. Within 20 minutes my braced top went flat. I did not expect that kind of movement that quickly. It all came back to where I had it with 48 hours back in the RH controlled shop. I know you said Ian you are building solid body guitars but for the acoustic set this happens and underscores how important RH control is to guitar building.

For everyone else considering getting into building acoustic guitars your RH solution and management really should be job one and it often is not going to be easy or cheap.... But it's essential.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 9:01 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks for the helpful replies! Double action truss rods were always a given. I'm more worried about wood twistingand bending during the build process. I'm assuming if I buy properly dried wood from reputable venders of musical instruments suppliers I should be fine. I'll just have to let it settle and watch what it does I suppose!

Is it a bad idea to shoot for 45-65% or should I set my setup a bit lower to match the expectation that my first few sales will be local?



These users thanked the author Ian Cunningham for the post: Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 5:32 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:04 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7240
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
40% is where i like mine.


Steve

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"



These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 5:35 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 4:44 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3865
Location: United States
IMO the key to humidity control (and cheap heating as well) is control over infiltration of outside air. It's easy in a tight shop, and impossible otherwise. If you can't tighten up the whole shop at least have a storage area for current projects, and, if possible, one good bench you can work on. As Hesh points out, things can move fast when you're working with thin wood; minimizing the time outside of the humidity controlled space helps. Keep in mind that concrete is basically transparent to humidity: basement shops can be difficult. DAMHIKT



These users thanked the author Alan Carruth for the post: Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 5:35 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 5:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7219
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
My basement shop is real easy to regulate.

He’s talking building electrics though, I wonder if its as important?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 7:03 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 980
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
It’s still important in my opinion. Strange things will happen to a neck built and fretted at < 30% RH if it eventually goes to live somewhere with a damp spring/summer with periods of 70% or greater RH.

I also think it’s a little short-sighted to say, well I’m only going to sell my guitars locally - people move and take their guitars with them, or sell them on eBay or Reverb and ship them across the country or internationally. A well-built guitar will be a prized possession that endure for decades, be passed down through a family or sold on to new owners etc. Who is to say it won’t end up living in a damper climate?

I have seen a brand-new Luthier-built guitar constructed in Colorado with limited workshop humidification which probably left the workshop in pristine condition but where the rod didn’t have the travel to get the neck back to straight once acclimated to the damp climate here. The builder was thinking he’d help his customer avoid winter cracking by building in the low 30% RH. Instead the neck needed surgery.

Anyhow, the OP has a plan to store wood at somewhere from 40%-50% RH, pull it out, make some sawdust and return it to the controlled space each day and I agree with Simon this is a workable approach.



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post: Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 5:36 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 8:19 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I gotta say, it's pretty awesome that I have some top-notch luthiers to get thoughts from and I'm seeing an overall vote of confidence, which is good. I'm rockin 27% humidity in my projected workspace and 35% in the house with no humidity adjustment in place. Since we're looking at a couple dozen percentage points between where I will build and where my first few instruments will probably live, should I adjust my goal humidity to be lower than the 40-50% average most instrument builders shoot for? And I'll reiterate, at this moment in time I am only considering building solid body electric guitars.



These users thanked the author Ian Cunningham for the post: Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 5:37 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 8:43 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
UPDATE: Humidity has dropped to 17% Almost as interesting as it is concerning. I feel like I should add more hygrometers to both areas to ensure I'm getting accurate readings. This is going to become a dull side-hobby.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 10:47 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 980
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ian Cunningham wrote:
I'm rockin 27% humidity in my projected workspace and 35% in the house with no humidity adjustment in place. Since we're looking at a couple dozen percentage points between where I will build and where my first few instruments will probably live, should I adjust my goal humidity to be lower than the 40-50% average most instrument builders shoot for?


In my opinion, no, if the instrument is being sold to someone for real money. As a builder I think we owe our customers an instrument that can travel, so I’d be shooting for 40% RH. I wouldn’t feel comfortable to take someone’s money and hand them an instrument that could be unplayable or unable to be set up well at 60% RH. You say where they will “probably” live. Sounds like you aren’t sure? So wise to build them to tolerate a slightly wider range of conditions.

If you’re building for fun and giving instruments away or keeping them yourself then do whatever you want I guess.

Re hygrometers - there must be dozens of threads on here discussing them at length if you do a search. The summary is: you need both the hygrometer and a method to calibrate or verify that what the hygrometer is telling you is accurate. There are chemical methods of calibration and also devices like psychrometers which can provide this information. In my own workshop I use Fischer hair-hygrometers and a relatively inexpensive sling psychrometer to check the readings periodically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 11:01 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
So to summarize, what you're saying is any instruments built in Arizona should be built in an environment with an RH of ~40% regardless of whether their owners will keep those instruments in Arizona, or in significantly more humid environments.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 11:49 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 980
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ian Cunningham wrote:
So to summarize, what you're saying is any instruments built in Arizona should be built in an environment with an RH of ~40% regardless of whether their owners will keep those instruments in Arizona, or in significantly more humid environments.

The point of the 40% is to build some tolerance for varying conditions into the instrument - it can tolerate a little dryness without cracking, it can tolerate a little dampness without swelling so much it cannot be set up. This is why most manufacturers have settled on the 40%ish figure. Keep in mind, humidity varies throughout the year in most places, many places have a damp summer and a dry winter especially if central heat is in play.

If you could guarantee, cast-iron 100% guarantee, that an instrument will stay in the desert forever, then sure - build it at 17% or 25% RH or whatever. No problem.

But you can’t guarantee that because people tend to move around and bring their possessions with them, instruments get sold, gifted, bequeathed to family when someone passes and so on. If you make a great guitar, it will be treasured and who knows where it will be living in 30 or 40 years?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 12:29 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7219
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I also think it’s a little short-sighted to say, well I’m only going to sell my guitars locally - people move and take their guitars with them, or sell them on eBay or Reverb and ship them across the country or internationally. A well-built guitar will be a prized possession that endure for decades, be passed down through a family or sold on to new owners etc. Who is to say it won’t end up living in a damper climate?

Amen to that! I just got an email today from someone who picked up my #10 from 2005 in New Hampshire, pretty cool! Another happy owner, lol…


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 6:25 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Ian Cunningham wrote:
I gotta say, it's pretty awesome that I have some top-notch luthiers to get thoughts from and I'm seeing an overall vote of confidence, which is good. I'm rockin 27% humidity in my projected workspace and 35% in the house with no humidity adjustment in place. Since we're looking at a couple dozen percentage points between where I will build and where my first few instruments will probably live, should I adjust my goal humidity to be lower than the 40-50% average most instrument builders shoot for? And I'll reiterate, at this moment in time I am only considering building solid body electric guitars.


A couple of more things Ian Josh are sticklers for decent RH management and control and it's also why we both brought up the necks. We are repair luthiers and we see every day what happens when people neglect the ravages of RH swings and what results from building with unseasoned wood.

I would shoot for 40 - 50% again because you have zero control what happens to your stuff after it leaves home.

Next you are telling us what you see RH wise but it's highly likely that the hygrometer that you are using is not accurate and may be WAY off. The only, only reliable way to tell the RH is with wet bulb testing or some variant of that. What those of us in the industry who have a shop full of the valuable personal property of others do is use a wet bulb test (or some variant) to calibrate a quality hygrometer that is made to be calibrated. I recalibrate annually.

Digital hygrometers are junk (and here comes the the push back, again) and everyone we test is way off. If it's not way off in the 40 - 50 range it is in the 20 - 30 range. Digitals use an electro mechanical reaction that the chemicals break down in a few years and then it loses its ability to even be close to accurate.

So for me step one is a quality hygrometer, there are recommendations here if you search "hygrometer" and then learn to do wet bulb testing. Calibrate your hygrometer, see what you have and then and only then you will have all the information you need to consider what kind of RH solution may work for you.

RH is going to be MUCH more important for you Ian if you plan to sell guitars because they will come back at you (and should) if you cut corners and produce weather vanes that move an unacceptable amount with the seasons.

To underscore what a problem this can be. I purchased a 2012 Strat new from a dealer that went teats up. My home is RH controlled and around 45% +/- a few percent at all times year around. I have an expensive, commercial humidifier on my furnace. Took the guitar home to my place and let it acclimate. Two weeks later set it up and it was great. A few days later the neck had moved. Readjusted the neck and it played great. A few days later the neck moved.... This continued to a lesser and lesser degree for five...... long..... years.

Last year I purchased a very high-end Strat-like guitar with a torrified, roasted neck. Same story the neck moved every week or so for nearly the first year I had it and it's settled down now. These are the only two guitars that I ever saw this happen to and many, many more have been brought to my collection without this ever happening, frequent neck movements.

Both guitars were brand new and both had very recently been manufactured.

So this neck movement directly impacted my enjoying the instruments. Your average player may struggle with any need for multiple truss rod adjustments and they may even damage an instrument in the process.

So with all this said I really would not recommend producing guitars in your climate for sale to consumers unless you do what it takes to control the RH or they are going to come back to you and or come to people like me who are not shy about telling clients who are mine now.... what I see as honestly as I can.

There are no short cuts in Lutherie. It may not bite you now but it will later. And let's face it too most of us get into this because we think that with time and practice we can produce an instrument superior to the commercial offerings. That's not the highest bar by the way..... And small builders can produce great stuff but cutting corners will not get us there. In some ways we have to be the keeper of the highest standards....

So I would proceed with caution, stash wood and build from your stash following guidelines for seasoning, control your RH and do it with calibrated devices avoiding digital hygrometers and expect that one of your instruments may end up in Saigon someday with 99%RH or Elon Musk may take it to Mars (if his stinkin rocket does not flip head over heels again causing the FAA to reevaluate Musk's license to fly because of public safety) where the RH is likely 0%. :)

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: joshnothing (Sun May 07, 2023 6:47 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 8:54 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm
Posts: 512
City: Tucson
State: AZ
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ok so I suppose my plan is to get a couple higher quality hygrometers, a reliable way to check/maintain accuracy, and keep wood/instruments in progress in that environment and hope for the best. The conditions I build these things in will improve as the build quality improves and I do expect to move at some point. Thanks for the advice!



These users thanked the author Ian Cunningham for the post (total 2): CraigG (Mon May 08, 2023 9:11 am) • Hesh (Sun May 07, 2023 11:02 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 10:31 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 2658
Location: Austin, Texas
First name: Dan
Last Name: Smith
City: Round Rock
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 78681
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I build solid bodies “outdoors”.
Even using H. Mahogany, I’m amazed at how much the wood moves in the neck joint.
Loose or too tight, depending on humidity.
I have to wait until a day or two of normal humidity to finesse the joint and glue it up.
We have some pretty wild temp/humidity swings in central Texas, I can’t afford a controlled shop environment.

Thanks for the tip of keeping the project inside when not working on it.

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 12:42 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
There have been some hobby builders I believe on this forum that have said that they build a box, essentially a closet, and maintain the proper 45% RH in that very small space so that they can take what they are working on out, work on it, then put it back in. It seems to work well that way. You figure, you pull a top out to glue on some braces for like an hour or two then it's in the closet for 18 hours over night or what ever it's going to be more adjusted to that environment inside the closet then it is outside.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: dzsmith (Sun May 07, 2023 4:33 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 4:43 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3865
Location: United States
Hesh wrote:
"There are no short cuts in Lutherie. It may not bite you now but it will later. (snip) In some ways we have to be the keeper of the highest standards...."

Truer words were never spoken. DAMHIKT



These users thanked the author Alan Carruth for the post (total 2): Hesh (Mon May 08, 2023 1:30 pm) • Ian Cunningham (Mon May 08, 2023 1:28 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 12:45 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm
Posts: 569
First name: Toonces
Last Name: the Cat
City: New Smyrna Beach
State: FL
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
With the additional information you provided, I still think you are fine but there are some major caveats.


Low 40's RH is where you want you control room at. Don't deviate from this. Low 40's ensures that your guitars can handle some high and low RH without breaking apart quickly. Also, 40% is manageable anywhere in the world with little effort and this is a huge reason why 43% is the industry standard.

With solid body guitars, taking a piece to work outside on for a couple of hours isn't any trouble ... but use common sense. If the outside RH is below 20%, then don't work on your guitar that day. But I stand by what I said, big chunks of wood will not change drastically in a couple of hours and the only really RH sensitive tasks with solid body building are neck attachment and fretboard preparation and fretting. You can let these pieces stabilize for several days in your humidity controlled space and pull them out to work on for an hour or so for the critical tasks. I can't imagine the humidity being an issue in such circumstances.

As Hesh stated, acoustics are far more sensitive. Bracing and plate attachment should only be done in tightly controlled environments.



These users thanked the author Toonces for the post: Hesh (Mon May 08, 2023 9:21 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 1:13 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:08 pm
Posts: 423
First name: jim
Last Name: mccarthy
City: ojai
State: ca
Zip/Postal Code: 93023
Country: usa
Focus: Build
What I do for necks and solid body guitars is store them in an airtight plastic container with a couple Boveda humidity control packets when I'm not working on them.

Acoustic guitars are an entirely different issue because the wood is thin and is affected by RH swings relatively quickly.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Duct Tape, kfish and 52 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com