Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:22 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:13 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
I recently refinished a gold top Les Paul.
Just so everybody knows I finished hundreds and hundreds of guitars in my life and never had this problem.
So as you could see in the photo when I put tape on the finish and pulled it off the clear layer separated from the gold.
I prepared the word in the normal way send it out to 220 then sprayed on stew Mac gold out of a rattle can because I really couldn’t find it and paint form do you wanna let that dry and then sprayed six or eight coats of clear mohawk nitro over it let it dry for two weeks and then buffed it.
When the tape came up there was gold on the back of the tape so it didn’tSeparate between the clear and the gold actually it was the gold it failed
Before I refinish this again anybody have any suggestions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:15 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:19 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
Also, as I scrape off the finish with a razor blade and a scraper it comes off way too easily so something is woefully wrong here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:38 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5758
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
How long was the tape on the guitar?
And were the finishes fresh?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:33 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
Chris Pile wrote:
How long was the tape on the guitar?
And were the finishes fresh?


The tape was on the guitar for an hour- and the finish was a month cured....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:06 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5758
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Sounds like one of your finishes is the culprit.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:47 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6237
Location: Virginia
So it seems then it's an adhesion problem between the gold and the prepped surface. I wonder if some sort of sealer would help. How did you strip the finish?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:45 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
I scraped and sanded it off, no chemicals were used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:46 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
jfmckenna wrote:
So it seems then it's an adhesion problem between the gold and the prepped surface. I wonder if some sort of sealer would help. How did you strip the finish?

Actually not only did the gold not stick properly to the wood when the tape came off there was gold on the back of the tape and gold still left on the guitar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:24 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6237
Location: Virginia
Weird! It's almost like the top coat nitro layers melted in and the gold stirred up to the top. Perhaps more top coats would help that but that doesn't solve the problem with the adhesion to wood. I wish I could help but I cannot. Maybe strip down again and use a vinyl sealer or shellac over the wood before gold? Then perhaps even a sealer over the gold?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:36 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1575
Location: United States
I might not be following you, but the Stewmac site requires a specific sealer to spray over the gold lacquer. I do not see that in your post. You might also look into other brands of gold spray cans and see if they have the same solvent base as your problem one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:01 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2144
wbergman wrote:
I might not be following you, but the Stewmac site requires a specific sealer to spray over the gold lacquer. I do not see that in your post. You might also look into other brands of gold spray cans and see if they have the same solvent base as your problem one.



I read it and they are saying to seal the wood -not between the gold and the clear.

I guess what I am looking for is someone who has successfully done gold top finishes.....


I routinely spray clear nitro over all different colors-opaque,transparent and semi-transparent with no problems which leads me to believe it is a compatibility problem with stew macs gold and the Mohawk nitro.

Therefore I am very hesitant to do it again

After all doesn't the saying go "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results".....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 2971
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Have you tried contacting StewMac customer service? They sell the gold, so they might have some insight as to what could have gone wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:41 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:57 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Austin, Texas
what sticks out to me in your story is the tape...the tape with the gold on it...to me this means the metallic gold paint didn't bond to itself (gold on tape, gold still on guitar)

this is interesting...perhaps, for whatever reason, the paint got on without enough solvents/clear? perhaps you didn't shake the can well enough (solids like color and flake fall to the bottom and would be sprayed out first methinks)?

just an idea perhaps with no merit

perhaps the issue is with the mohawk product not being as intended for use with stewmac's product and that would be rectified by using a stewmac clear


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:00 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 644
First name: Bob
Last Name: Gramann
City: Fredericksburg
State: VA
Zip/Postal Code: 22408
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I don’t know if this is relevant to your case: 3M blue tape and nitro lacquer are incompatible. The blue tape will destroy totally cured lacquer even decades old. There is a warning somewhere on the tape label, maybe inside the core, about that. Usually, the green tape is okay.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:02 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1836
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Gracey for rattle can metallic finishes... we never saw any issues with their metallics, etc., although found that none of the rattle can packaged finishes replicated a true gold top finish. Clean the spray cap with acetone before and after every use, and agitate on a near-continuous basis. Gracey's Lake Placid Bluewas the only rattle-can that looked anything like the original Fender finish... I have a Tele body that I refinished in that color and may even see assembly at some point in the future.

An hour may be too long for 3M 2090 blue tape on fresh lacquer...for large area masks, we used low tack signmaker's tape (the white tape SM sells) over-coated with multi-surface blue tape. No issues. For fine masking and around hard line edges, we used Tamiya's 1/4" modelmaker's masking tape has just the right stretch and stick to allow masking of fresh lacquer without issue.

https://www.1bossco.com/products/copy-o ... -aprox-3-8

For gold tops, we used a dedicated spray gun from Harbor Freight with lacquer and metallic material (Crescent #255 or #256...both were used by Gibson at one time or another), and much more true-to-original than any of the rattle cans (although Gracey comes the closest). Meticulous prep and constant agitation required, but that work allows the finish to be laid down in multiple, thin coats without excessive build.

DO NOT shoot metallics in a gun that you want to shoot clears through...the HF jam gun is perfectly adequate for the job, and cleans out/up well even without a gun cleaner.

Finally, all of the Gibsons I saw which were true gold tops (not finished with that terrible synthetic color they were spraying for a few years) had scraped bindings...some even have some sliver of raw wood showing. Even with a less-than-perfect scrape on the bindings, you will likely be no worse off than the typical factory gold top from back in the day.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dan Miller, Honza and 104 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com