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Pierre,
Try searching for "(name) dental composite shade guide" for whichever brand you want and you should be able to get pretty close.

I’ll add that there was a recent thread on the topic with some detailed info:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=54494

Color-wise I’ve found it doesn’t matter much if what you are doing is filling a slightly low slot - you’ll come back in and file down almost all of the filling you’ve added. So all that remains is a tiny sliver, a couple thousandths of material in the bottom of the slot and it’s hidden under the strong.

If you are using the composite to rebuild a nut missing a big chunk, then color would matter - it would be best to have a variety of the available shades on hand as there’s a lot variation in the colour of bone nuts. Most of the composites are available in either individual vials of a single color, or as kits which contain a variety of shades. Brand-wise, I have no idea if one brand of composite is “better” (harder? More durable?) than another. I suspect for our purposes it doesn’t really matter.


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Can we also discuss the need for the adhesive and the acid etch. I bought both and have used them sometimes and not used them at other times. Not sure if they are needed in this type of application. What is your experience?

I have always used both parts which has worked well for me. Never tried it any other way.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I too have always used the acid etch solution, just to be safe. The stuff I have only needs to be on for 15 seconds so it doesn’t really slow me down.

I’ve heard of people skipping the etch with no problems, but are you saying you have skipped the adhesive as well, Barry?

Next time I’ve got the stuff out to do a job I might test fill a scrap nut and try a few different permutations.

Yes, one time I skipped both and it seemed to work fine. I think the enamel sitting in a nut slot is a lot less challenging than a tooth fill.

I never etch and start with the bonder, 20 seconds under the light and then the fill and 45 seconds for that and never had one fail or come back.

I've filled plastic, counter top, plastic...., and bone and ivory too and I've even filled brass with no problems.

I am keen to dovetail my fills too making scores in the slot with very thin files to get some mechanical adhesion too. Sure beats CA and dust that never lasts or stand up to sharp nut files.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Thank a lot! Very helpful.


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse

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Pierre Castonguay

Here are two that I used in the last few days.

A #17 square-end Xacto blade works nicely as a scraper in tight spots where a razor blade won't fit. It also works well for removing any bits of squeeze out along the linings that are visible through the sound hole. Much easier to handle inside the body than a razor blade and it fits better into tight curves in the upper bout.



Here's an oldie but goody. I think I saw this one in a Dan Erlewine video. How to get tape under strings without removing the strings. Pass something thin underneath the strings, stick the piece of tape to it, and pull it back under the strings bringing the tape with it.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

That's your newest octave mando? Nice. They don't have octave strings, just doubled? Hesh approved nut? I've seen many DEEP slots!

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Why be normal?

Thanks.

Octave mandolins are pretty loosely defined instruments. They can be strung with octave pairs on the two low courses or with doubled pairs. Sarah Jarosz has the lower two courses on her octave mando strung with octave pairs, but from what I've seen of octave mandolins, that's somewhat unusual. Sierra Hull and Joe K Walsh, for example, play octave mandolins with all doubled pairs.

I'm not sure what makes a nut a Hesh-approved nut.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Thanks for the info on the stringing. I've always wondered about 12 strings strung with the octaves first or the other way around. So I guess there are different ways to string, And different tunings.

The Hesh approved nut? I guess it is just one that looks right and does the job. That's the way I like them, with the strings not buried in them, and the clearance low on the first fret. Blending in nice with the neck and head. Just well done. I could say it was a Ken approved nut. But what does Ken know?

The headstock veneer is very nice too.

As far as a tip for the day. I Just looked at the Jumbo Josh worked on in the What's on your bench thread. I like the satin look. I used Osmo oil finish on my little Stauffer guitar, and it is the easiest way ever to put finish on anything. I like the gloss, but it is barely semi-gloss. With 1 coat, of maybe 2 very light rubbed off coats, it is just satin.

I haven't done it, but they say you can add a coat at any time later with just light buffing with a fiber pad. They also have some kind of finish preserver, or something like that that you can rub in to liven it up if it gets too dull. I haven't tried that either.

It is just so fast and easy. If you don't have to have the smooth shine.

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Why be normal?

Was gluing braces today and thought maybe some of you don’t know this one. A regular plastic soda straw cut at an angle works great for cleaning glue squeeze out. Just cut it off with scissors for a fresh end.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Take a #11 exacto blade and grind/hone the tip into a chisel.
Works very well for removing crud in bound fret slots.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Two things:

First on Fender electrics with 6 alike tuners (old style) one of the design flaws that Leo lived with forever was a very poor break angle on the G and to some degree the D string.

So when I put strings on a Fender with six full height tuners and only one string tree I stretch out a good 6" of extra string and wind that onto the posts with the wraps wrapping downward toward the head stock face for the G and somewhat for the D. In other words I am winging a bunch of extra string on the string posts that cinches up because the post is tapered but stays neatly wound. What results is the string departs the post very low on the post near the head stock. This greatly improves break angle for the D and G and eliminates the possibility of a heavy hitter having the vibrating wave of the string breaching the nut slot.

Problem solved.

Now Ken and others a "Hesh approved nut" beyond someone with GAS too like me is pretty simple and has nothing to do with Hesh. Where this comes from is stories I have heard over and over from Dave Collins who used to teach at the Galloup school of Lutherie. Dave is my business partner and best friend.

He said that the class would make their nuts and the instructor, him and others would come along pick up the nut that someone just spent two hours crafting, look at it, say "that's nice" throw it in the trash and then say "make another one you need to make about 100 nuts before you will even begin to understand what a great nut looks like...."



So this is who taught me too and I admit this is not a very nice story. But truth be told here is some criteria for a nice nut and my personal experience with Dave's guidance was that I am still getting better at it, faster too after hundreds of nuts I've made. Each guitar is an individual so each nut will be too.

1) Eloquent in appearance matching the lines and flow of the instrument. See Collings Guitars, excellent f*ctory nuts, best in class.

2) Minimalistic and not larger or more massive than the minimum it needs to be to do it's job.

3) Bone, we won't use anything else and if you bring us ivory I may hang up on you...... and have been known to do this. We don't break the law and we don't contribute to killing elephants, go somewhere else if you want ivory which is not even a good nut material compared to quality bone.

4) Scratch free, not a one. Had a master jeweler who balked when he picked up his Martin with a new nut. He insisted that we gave him a white, plastic one because our nuts are very shiny and scratch free. He took it to his shop and tested it under magnification and then called us and apologized. He also left a five star review about this. The only place you will find a plastic nut in our shop is in the trash can.

5) Very precise string spacing that may vary depending on the neck and client. The distance of the E's to the edge of the neck is correct for both gutiar and player AND the fret ends and bevel..... and not always equal either, some folks need and want more distance from the neck edge for the high e and less for the low e as they are thumb over players like me. String spacing between strings should be perfect, no exceptions.

6) The edges of the nut cannot be felt by the player when running hands up and down the neck in the nut area, no edges sticking out AND no gaps.

7) If you find yourself spending a lot of time preparing the nut channel.... you are probably doing the right thing. The nut should fit the channel perfectly and we like the look of a finished in nut too even though they are a pain to get out well.

8) The bone should be quality bone with no voids, we use cattle that free range and use their legs or do Yoga three times a week. The bone should be well degreased too.

9) A single drop of medium CA is what we use to attach the nut but a well made and fitted nut should almost "snap" into the nut channel and barely need any glue per Mario P and he's right.

10). We think that the half string proud of slot thing originated with Dan, E and in talking with him about it he does too. It has also been misunderstood. The intention was never to suggest that all nuts should have half the string proud of the nut. That's not very servicable in the nut slots are routinely cut lower in set-ups and no one doing a step up wants or needs to have to reduce the height of the nut too. When we make our nuts we cut the slots to near final depth and then with a bag ass file we file away the excess nut material with sacrificial strings on the instrument until our file is hitting the strings. So our nuts have the string tops about equal with the nut top and we prefer this. A hard hitting player can pull a well hit string right out of a 1/2 height nut slot.

11). Break angle for say an acoustic should be about 1/2 th head stock set-back angle when there is one. And we want at least 3 - 4 degrees of break angle, hopefully more on all nuts, always.

12). We use gauged nut files and cut our slots to accommodate strings one size larger so when I make a nut for a guitar with 12's it will do 13's too with no binding and no need for the client to come back.

13). Nut slot bottoms should be round, we are not fans of using V shaped files for nut slots and that also pinches the string, the V does and causes binding and tuning instability issues for some some of the time. V shaped file users will push back, you always do, we disagree and I said why.

14). When finished a well crafted nut should be a thing of some beauty and it reminds me of the sailors of old doing scrimshaw. It's very relaxing work for me too, I like it at times when I am not on a deadline. I have been known to sign my nuts too, no jokes please..... Hey I never had any kids of my own so my guitars and guitar parts that I create are kind of my kids.

15). I have not gotten to nut slot depth which we take way lower than you do Seriously we do and the two dozen OLFers who have been to our classes on nut making will verify that the gaps that we work to are not even always visible to some..... So "15" here, cutting th nut slots from me is a topic all unto itself and I don't have time to write anymore right now...

But anyway these are some of what makes a Hesh approved or more accurately a nut that someone does not come around, look at it, toss it in the trash and say "that's nice, make another one...."

When I was learning to build I would leave my office around lunch and go sit in the moldy humidifier room at a G*itar C*nter and check out the Martins, g*bsons, Breeds and Taylors. It was my belief that a custom, Luthier made instrument should be superior to all of these in all respects. Now you know why I was in the cardiac ICU for four days....

Anyway if you want to see what I would call perfect nuts check out Collings, they have it down and are a great model to emulate.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

I have a few clients who have been with me since the late 70's / early 80's. They will come in with guitars that feature nuts I made back then. They are perfectly happy with them because they work fine, but I usually cringe at the appearance of my previously philistine efforts and ask if I can make them a new one for free. Of course, I would hope in 40 plus years I got better at it.

Thank God I was blessed with a bit of natural mechanical ability and facility with tools from a young age. I had tools in my youth, and loved using them. I was taught to tie fishing flies at a tender age (and clean my catch with sharp knives). I did woodburning and woodcarving as a small boy, began building scale models before reaching 2 digits in age, and enjoyed doing all sorts of mechanical repair. I was the neighborhood fix-it kid. These skills and abilities aided me in my quest when I found luthiery. Some of my first guitar repair tools were the needle files and Exacto blades from my model making toolkit. I was already used to working with tools and developed an eye for what looks good. Nowadays they call it technology transfer.

But I'm happy I work on guitars. It fulfills and pleases me. I hope it shows. I'd be a boring, cranky old guy if I couldn't. Maybe I'm just sleepy and should go back to bed.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hey Chris we can relate and Dave once reset a neck that was not done correctly by the Luthier who had our space before us and he did it for free because it was an early Bob Taylor Lemon Grove instrument with a low serial number. He did it for the guitar. I'm sure you can relate to that too.

Me I would charge them Hell I would charge them even if we didn't do anything JUST KIDDING....

You were and are a natural and how you self describe yourself is very similar to Dan E and Dave Collins too. I'm a lot like you were too and always need a project or I climb the walls. I work Sundays now for fun and something to do so you see I got hooked on this big time

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Ann Arbor Guitars

I wonder how many older luthiers built model planes and cars and had model railroads as kids? Quite a few I bet. I sure did. I think it taught patience and attention to detail. You could also have fun blowing them up later with firecrackers.

I don't think kids do that anymore though. Well maybe they still blow things up

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

You just described me. I built model airplanes, ships, cars, and spaceships. Lots of them. When I was in high school, I staged a massive pileup of a lot of the car models I had that involved gasoline and firecrackers. Good fun!

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Me too Terry I worked in a Schwinn Bike dealership and hobby store when I was 15 and my paycheck never left that store.... but lots of models and slot cars and trains did.

Then one day I discovered that I had a penchant for shooting with my Crossman pump pellet gun and massacred all my models and N gauge train set in my basement. It was fun at the time, not so fun afterwards....

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Here's another one. When gluing on the top and back I used to have a hard time getting the top on exactly centered. The back is easily aligned, of course, because I glue that one on first. I used to depend on the notches for the braces in the sides to index the top when I glued it and that was pretty good but sometimes my centerline might end up as much as 1/8" off when I took it out of the go-bar deck and that bugged me.

What I do now is leave a little extra material on the top by the tailblock. When I'm done fitting the top to the sides I use a bit of CA gel to glue a sacrificial block to the sides at the tailblock just under the top and drill the top for a 1/8" pin. I also drill the top over the headblock under the fretboard area for another 1/8" pin. Then when I glue on the top the alignment stays perfect. The tape on the pin just makes it easier to grab when I pull it out. The sacrificial block just pops off using a chisel.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

You left out setting them on fire. Oh, the memories of a childhood.
Remember the U control planes? Those just ended up in a billion pieces crashed into the ground. I eventually did better with RC gliders.
And, as with Hesh using them for target practice.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Steve, that is a brilliant tip for centering the top - I am going to use that one for sure!

Rob

Steve - that's a toolmakers technique!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I saw a guy once who would leave 1/8” excess at each end of the top, cut a narrow kerf in it on center then slide a piece of matching size steel shim in the kerf and down between each the two halves of the mould where they met.