Official Luthiers Forum!

OK. So yes this is a guitar forum, but I'm familiar with many of you here and value your expertise. I'd rather not join another forum where I have no idea who I'm talking to in the first place.

My wife has a decent store bought use. Concert size. My question is.. when setting string height what is the height at 1 and 12 for a good playing uke.

Again forgive me for being out of zone in a guitar forum.

B

I would search the Uke posts here. It’s all the same people you already know.

For the 12th, most use an 1/8th inch at the 12th.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I usually set them up the same as I would any guitar - slightly higher action at the bridge being the only exception due to the flex and low tension of the nylon strings.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Nut is set same as a guitar, ie: fret the 3rd, gap above the 1st.

12th for my Tenors range from .090 to .1, depending on the build and strings. I know some guys that go down to .085.

Uke nut slots are typically cut higher like classical guitars than steel strings because the strings are more flexible and can hit frets easier.

I set action at the body joint around 4/64" for the high string and 5/64th" for the low string.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

I'm sorry to disagree with Hesh, but his setup specs are way out of line for all the professional uke players (and the performing amateurs) I know.

At the nut, set it up like any other fretted stringed instrument (except maybe a classical guitar, I have no knowledge there). Fret between frets 2 and 3 and adjust to produce barely a hair's gap above fret 1. Your wife will thank you, as the uke will intonate better at the lower frets and the dreaded Bb chord will be manageable.

At the 12th fret, 3mm or 1/8 inch is the maximum. Even the heaviest handed strummer won't make it buzz if the frets are even. Most players will find it more pleasant, and intonate better at the upper frets, with a 12th fret height of 2.5mm. This works nicely for strumming, chord melody and simple runs. Those who play fast runs in the style introduced by Jake Shimabukuro usually play tenors, and can set their action as low as 2mm, though this requires precise right hand technique and a delicate touch to avoid buzzing.

The best 12th fret height depends on your wife's strumming style - if she has a delicate touch, go straight to 2.5mm. If she's a little heavy-handed, like most beginners, start around 2.7mm and take it down to 2.5mm later.

I've built around 50 ukes, all with zero frets (so very low 1st fret action), and must have set up a similar number for friends. Consistent comments are that these ukes are really easy to play, and don't buzz.

Chris consider reading any of the many, many posts I've made about cutting nut slots. We use the same method but I cut them lower than you do I'm sure because Dave and I cut them lower than 90% pf professional Luthiers that we know. So no disagreement there on method just on results.

You like lower action on a Uke and the way we cut nut slots takes much of the intonation issues out of play with medium action at the body joint.

Or, in summary I set up Ukes differently than you do favoring lower nut slots likely than you do but higher action up the neck toward the body than you like. Our action for either of us is likely similar in the areas that most people play a uke on the fret board even though my saddle is higher my nut slots are likely lower.

Anyway I've set up hundreds of Ukes with never a complaint. I know Uke players who would buzz out with the action that you cite and we could not set-up this way reliably for the generic player who we don't know or can't know how hard they hit.

Lastly the lower the saddle the less loud the instrument because the bridge rotation is reduced too. With lower nut slots and a higher saddle my Uke set-up are likely louder than a uke set-up with a low saddle and nut slots that are not uber low.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

I/ve built about 40 plus ukes as well. Setting up ukes is more of a mixed bag IMHO. It all depends on several factors. playing style, intonation, type of strings, how flat the fb is, how high the saddle is neck to body angle. etc. Whether the fb has a radius ?? Commercial ukes are more difficult to set up because of preset slotted plastique nuts and saddle heights, For my own ukes I prefer abt a 10 thou clearance at the first fret .Over time the strings will cut away into the nut and lower that action. At the 12 th fret 1 st string abt .080 action. or higher On a baritone uke . I would do .100 at the 12 th fret 4 th wound brass string, if it was tuned liked a guitar. D G B E, To get a good bass sound.

I could not figure out how everyone was saying .090 - .100 then it dawned on me. I use the 1/8th drill bit at the 12th but that’s from the fretboard not the crown of the fret. I use the narrow / med fretwire from SM which is a .40 crown height before leveling. So I guess I actually end up ~.090 as well.

Thanks to Hesh and Chris for giving the pro perspective!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I'm not a pro! - just a uke performer and regular uke builder.

BTW Hesh, you wrote that you set a uke's nut slots higher than a steel string guitar, but in your second post you write that you set them low. I suspect you mean the latter, in which case we only disagree about the 12th fret action, though I suspect we both agree that it needs to be set to suit the player.

Actually no I don't agree that the instrument needs to be set-up to suit the player. I've set up tens of thousands of instruments now and the the parameter that overrides all others including the player are the physics of the instrument as it interacts any player. Regardless of the player there are set-ups that won't work and we won't do them even if asked because we guarantee 100% satisfaction to our clients. We also want to get it right the first time.

It's very common for folks to request action lower than their instrument is physically capable of doing and/or the specific player has issues where they can't play action that low. From slack/drop tunings to the choice of strings as well as player attack and even the sort of music all can impact if a set-up will function as desired for a player.

What I wrote is that nylon string instruments need higher nut slots than steel string and they do again as I said because the nylon strings lash out more and can hit frets if the nut slots are too low. What's your point?

And we do disagree with 12th fret action your spec is too low and would not provide a reliable set-up to a generic uke player who we can't know how they hit.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

I aim for 2.5 mm. to 2.7 mm. at the twelfth fret which is about 7/64 “
Paul

Yep that's not bad action at all on a uke. I go a little lower as mentioned but also as mentioned ukes are so easy to play low action on a uke is not what we usually get asked to do as the client complaint.

I wanted to add too earlier that I'm not a fan of zero frets on anything and on a UKE I can see them as problematic for a player who is aggressive in their attack. The reason being that a zero fret gives you zero opportunity to individually adjust the strings for optimal nut slot height. Zero frets were also commonly found on mass produced import guitars that were banged out in f*ctories in Asia where skilled labor that knew how to cut a nut slot was not available or the sweat shop owner didn't want to pay for skilled labor.

A nut is much better idea in my experience on a uke or guitar be it a steel string or a classical. There is a reason whey classical guitars don't have zero frets.... the nylon strings lash out too much for players with moderate or more attacks with the strings too low at the zero fret.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

While Hesh and I take a very similar approach to instrument setup, there are couple of details on which we disagree: reasons for variation in ideal nut slot "height" is one of them.

Hesh is very proud of how low he (and David) file their nut slots at Ann Arbor Guitars, and with good reason. I arrived at my method of setting slot depth combining early building experience with "zero" frets together with the methods demonstrated in the 2009 setup video by Kent Carlos Everett. It has always seemed to me that the nut slot depth should mimic the height of a properly leveled "zero" fret, putting the string at the height on the same plane as the rest of the frets. I evaluate the height of the string over the first fret while pressing down between the 2nd and 3rd, as shown by Everett and as described by Hesh.

This is the logic Hesh has explained in several posts for setting the first two strings on a steel string guitar as close as possible to the height of the fret plane. But then he makes exceptions for fatter strings, or lower-tension classical strings and sets them higher, so that they won't "lash out".

That logic makes no sense to me. If the string were to lash out with the nut slot set to the fret plane height, then surely it would ALSO lash out when fretting (or putting a capo) on the first fret. We need to avoid lashing out not only for open strings, but also when fretted. Making room for that oscillation is best done by setting appropriate neck relief and saddle height. To illustrate "ideal" gap above the first fret, just put a capo on and move your gap measurement up -- now you've established the fret plane using an actual fret, and that gap is your ideal target for setting nut slot height.

In short, my clearance spec over the first fret is 0.001-0.002" -- regardless of string type, gauge or instrument. In his video, Everett displays a figure of 1/64", which is actually quite huge -- and misleading. Having spent some shop time with Carlos, I realize that in fact he never measures the gap and is simply looking for the smallest possible gap.

One hears many guitar techs make claims about how many instruments they've set up for discerning clients without complaint -- it never impresses me, even when it's true. My first career was as a scientist, so my overall approach to guitar building is to understand the physics, quantify the design target and evaluate with known precision. But, for what it's worth, I can also claim to have set up hundreds of fretted instruments, steel string, electric, classical, bass, banjo, mandolin, ukulele, for both amateur and pro clients alike. The one spec that never changes is nut slot "height", relative to the fret plane.

Do I make exceptions? For instruments with good fret condition -- no. But sometime the first fret has taken a beating, so it's not always an ideal reference for the fret plane, due to wear. In those cases, some allowance has to be made to respect the target of setting the slot wrt the overall fret plane height, unless the customer is willing to pay to restore ideal fret level. Playing style can affect ideal relief and saddle height, but not nut slots.

Not everyone will agree. I don't really expect Hesh to agree, even if our methods and logic are generally quite similar. But I hope folks will at least think it through.

And if I've written too much, blame COVID-19 -- my repair business is currently dead, so I have extra time.

Tim you're right we don't agree and we don't agree from the most fundamental assumption that you've made here which is: "It has always seemed to me that the nut slot depth should mimic the height of a properly leveled "zero" fret, putting the string at the height on the same plane as the rest of the frets."

You are not taking into account the distance from the saddle of the nut compared to subsequent frets that are closer to the saddle. Or, in other words your ideal nut slot height is also going to be impacted by what fret is bring fretted. The string angle leaving the fretted note increases with every fret closer to the saddle. Hopefully I am explaining this in a manner that folks can follow. Or in other words the angle of the string leaving the fret it's in contact with increases, gets greater with every fret closer to the saddle which has a fixed height.

So what I have for space over say the second fret when fretting the first is going to be different and less than the space that I have over the 12th fret when fretting at the 11th because the saddle is closer in this example and the string angle leaving the fret it's in contact with is now greater.

Also you said: "In short, my clearance spec over the first fret is 0.001-0.002"

That's higher than we cut the slots for the b and twice as high as we cut the slots for the high e. Although difficult and I agree with you it doesn't matter what the number actually is we have measured our e string over the first fret height at around .0005" and the B at around .0009" and it was done with feeler gauges and a microscope.

So with this said our methods are not really the same because to us a zero fret is a total compromise and not correct anywhere for any string unless it's by chance. We want some strings perhaps higher than a zero fret and some lower for what we consider optimal.

I'll add that what happens to that zero fret string height when the player goes to 13's. Since the height of the strings over the frets is partially a function with a zero fret of the strings themselves since the strings ark over that zero fret your height over the first fret increases with stiffer strings.

Also in the mix is the ham fisted fool playing Purple Haze drunk and pissed who may be attacking the strings with.... reckless abandon. More clearance is needed here too.

It's at the point where this really needs to be seen in person like our students have had the opportunity to see when at our place to really understand what we do and why.

I will say what you are doing Tim is very good and among the best understanding of this subject matter that I've heard fromm anyone here. Your set-ups as described in terms of nut height are great in my view and so very good spec wise that I would not even suggest that you learn what we do because we are chasing the last 5% of optimal.... ness.... Remember there are two guys five feet apart both naturally competitive saying to ourselves at our shop I'm taking this one lower than that ******* Hesh will just to show him up. That's Dave and I.

I hope that you are doing well. We are ordered closed by our governor who had the pair to order a shelter in place and save lives. We are completely complying and I'm home learning the lead lines to Almost Cut My Hair today since I am about ready to cut my own freakin hair...

Stay safe my friend we will get though this and be able to go back to cutting all those dang nut slots however we individually wish.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Inasmuch as I only gave a quick scan, this may have been addressed.

In general, if the nut slot is on the same level as the frets, you get a back buzz.

Not necessarily and this is for sure a nit picking observation. But the strings ark out of the slot because of the break angle and for say a high e that is level with the but slot the string may not be laying on the fret and may in fact be a properly cut nut slot.

Out students here will recall, or should recall... that we discussed the idea of the half pencil line and is it possible for a but slot to be cut below the half pencil line and it is without that slot being too low.

The thicker the string the more the ark.

With this said it's possible and we likely even do it ourselves with how low we cut nut slots to cut the slot below the fret plane and still not have fret contact on an open, high tension steel string such as the e or b.

Now this is an academic point and discussion for me and I want to be sure that folks know I'm not advocating cutting nut slots below the fret plane level set. I'm not even advocating that most folks here attempt to cut them nearly as low as we do at our shop and some others do too, Collings guitars for one are set-up much like my and our set-ups. I own an I-35 now too BTW and love Collings.

But for those of you who want to know how some in the trade do things I offer my view. As also mentioned to Tim above a couple thou of difference makes virtually little difference and what he described that he does is in my view very, very good. We just go a tad lower and it's even arguable that there is benefit in this. I can also see that there is no room for nut slot wear how we do things and that could be a down side.

Anyway a guitar is a system and that means that how I can cut a but slot with one nut, one guitar and one specific set of strings and even tunings.... may not work well for the next guitar, next player, next different set of strings, etc. Every guitar and hence every set-up is going to have to be an individual and viewed that way in terms of what's right for it and that specific player.

There are set-ups that work well generically for nearly everyone and that's what I do a lot of since in recent years I'm not there when the clients come and go but do my work when it's quiet and we are even closed at times.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

For someone that hasn't done many of these, doesn't have relief control, etc ... try 0.090" or so. You'll have a reasonably decent playing ukulele. Forego the "number of fairies on the head of a pin" stuff - it's fake news.