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 Post subject: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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For those people who scarph their pegheads to the neck but don't like the joint line running across the back of the head here is a joint that can eliminate that. The scarph will be hidden and the joint will appear as a line between the neck and peghead transition where if well fitted and carved it will be inconspicuous.
This joint also allows many of the peghead shaping operations to be done separate from the neck shaft, as well as allowing the shaft itself to be shaped more easily.


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: GRS (Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 pm 
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Koa
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That is very similar to a bridle joint. I seem to recall seeing something similar on 1880s Martins albeit a little different.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:16 am 
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First name: colin
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A standard scarf joint if well done doesn't bother me at all, and I've never seen a player who even looked at one.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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that is a bridal joint.
Martin used them and that is why today any guitar over the 28 series ( other than the D35 ) have the valoute on the back of the head stock.
the lower series used a V notch joint.
very nice. The are stronger than the scarf joint.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:26 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Hi Dan and John,
You guys have a good eye - that is the hidden part of the modified bridle joint Martin used on their earlier guitars. Without the "bird's mouth" it becomes more of a modified scarph joint. Once the head plate is glued on the joint will be fully enclosed.
I have been working on ways to make neck making a little easier and a bit "greener", so I am using scarphed pegheads and glued on heel blocks. By cutting the taper into the neck shaft with my initial table saw cuts I can get two shafts out of a piece of rough 4/4 lumber 4 1/2 inches wide and 15 - 17 inches long. This also allows me to hog off most of the material of the shaft in a few minutes with a large router bit, and as previously mentioned do much of the peghead shaping and drilling free of the neck.
The usual method of making a scarphed peghead uses a shaft the same width as the peghead so more of the wood winds up in the "bin". It also makes it difficult to use a router bit to shape the full length of the shaft . I have seen people who can do that in a few minutes with a draw knife- but I'm not one of them.
I do like making the modified bridle joint Martin used, but it requires slightly thicker material (rough 5/4) which is sometimes harder to source, and is not quite as "green".


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:59 am 
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Clay, that's an intriguing joint. I like the "green" aspect. Not having the experience of many of the folks here, I am not entirely clear on how that joint works or how to make it. If you feel like it, it would be nice to see a little more on it and how you cut it.

I also was interested because I'd never seen the spelling "scarph," so I looked it up.

From: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/scarph

Scarf....Also scarph...
"Origin of scarf2
1490–1500; < Old Norse skarfr (derivative of skera to cut) end cut from a beam (hence perhaps a piece of cloth cut off, i.e., scarf1); compare Swedish skarv patch.

[continuing from dictionary.com] ...from the Web for scarph

"The long tapered end of one piece of timber made to fay into a scarph at the end of another piece, to gain length."
The Sailor's Word-Book|William Henry Smyth

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:39 am 
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In my reprinted 1867 "The Sailor's Word-Book" it is spelled both ways, but the definition is a little different - are there 2 versions of that book? In wooden boat construction the scarf(ph) is used in dozens of places. In mast making, the rule is that a 12:1 slope yields a piece of wood as strong as a single piece of the same length.

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:54 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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The way I cut this joint is to first decide the angle I want the peghead to have in relation to the neck (usually 11 to 14 degrees). I then set the saw blade to that angle and using a tenoning jig (homemade or otherwise) cut the angle on the fretboard side of the neck blank. The second cut is a cut parallel to the back of the neck and slightly below it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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The angles and depths of the side cuts are chosen to remove enough wood to hide the scarph and provide a space for the peghead to join the neck. The side cuts form an angle with the back cut.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:06 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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That's a phat scarph joint for sure :)

I've got a couple early 1800's guitars in for restorations with joints like that and they are beautiful to look at for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:21 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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The peghead "excavation" can be made either by measurement and layout lines or by constructing a jig that will cut a "ramp" at the same angle as the peghead/neck angle that is as wide as the flat surface cut on the back of the neck (as in the first photo in the first post). The side cuts can then be determined from measuring the neck and transferring the measurements to the peghead and cutting them close with a saw and fitting with a chisel and files.


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: TimAllen (Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:09 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:27 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
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Martin had a number of joint they used. These were artfully executed. The ice cream cone heel is my favorite , bridal joint and the v. here you can clearly see the dart valoute or whatever you wish to call it. This gave a nice mechanical hold as well increasing the glue surface area.


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blues creek guitars
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You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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The modified bridle joint (with bird's beak) Martin used is similar, but requires using thicker stock and a few more cuts. It is a more elegant solution and fun to make.
This neck is going on a "size 2" travel guitar and is getting a "snake head" to slip inside the endblock.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:14 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Clever Clay.
I like the look of that scarph.
Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:15 pm 
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Clay

I like the way this joint allows you to shape each piece before assembly so you get a nice, crisp line at that point

John Hall

Do you have an image of the inside of an ice cream cone heel joint?

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:33 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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there is a good article on this subject in the guitar maker mag
I will look to see where I have the photos and upload asap

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Here are some pictures of the peghead after the veneer is glued on and some of the shaping is done. The peghead needed to be a little bit short and stubby for me to put a 25" S.L. neck in a size 2 body (I didn't want to use a 24.5"S.L. these normally had). I rounded some of the edges, but I'm debating whether I should sharpen them up again, or go with the softer "organic" look (organic is a "thing" now isn't it? :lol: )


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: TimAllen (Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:47 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:55 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Here are a couple of simple jigs I use for neck making. When you find ways to improve them please share.
The jig that is angled with a slot lets me use a router to rout a "ramp" in a peghead blank that matches the angle cut on the neck shaft. I then do the side cuts by hand.
The jig with the "V" brackets holds the neck at an angle to make the "V" cut on the modified bridle joint, but here I am using it to give some guidance with doing the side cuts.
Since I taper the neck blank to conserve wood I need a jig to hold it at the proper angle when cutting the truss rod slot. This is essentially a non adjustable taper jig that traps the neck in position


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: TimAllen (Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:48 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Just to complete this thread I thought I would show the glued and finished joint. If the factories would adopt it they could save a lot of wood.


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: Luthier1975 (Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
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Location: Virginia
Looks great Clay. Complicated little thing there but worth it in the end.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post (total 2): Clay S. (Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:10 pm) • Luthier1975 (Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden scarph joint
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:17 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
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After you do a couple it's not too difficult to make. Much simpler than the bird's beak joint Martin used. I'm sure a CNC machine could knock it out quickly and make a perfect fit every time. I'm sure Andy Birko could do it.


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