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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:31 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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SteveSmith wrote:
Hesh wrote:
... Dave makes these so don't ask me how he does it and he's too busy, so am I to really participate here much these days.


They are made of sheet brass folded over on itself and soldered. I'll try to remember to take some photos/measurements of mine and post it separately for anyone who may want to make one.


Thank You and that's what I recall too Steve. He likes brass for it's workability and doubles it and solders.

The one suggestion that I would offer for my torture tested one is to drill a small nail hole in the top to you can hang it on the wall.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hesh wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
Hesh wrote:

Yeah nut slots can go WAY lower than anyone here ever describes except what I am sharing. Many of the techniques offered describe slots that are just way too high and would not be acceptable as professional quality work.



Then anyone here? Really? I guess us dummies here are in good hands with John Hall, Arnold and Howard to name a few. I mean what do they know?


Fair point that was overly broad and harsh, I apologize to anyone and everyone that this statement may have offended. There was zero intent to call anyone names nor did I call anyone names that's JF Mckenna's assertion and it's inaccurate.

We do take nut slots lower than I've ever seen anyone else here describe. That's the intended point that we go very low with them.


Ok so what about back buzz then? I push the treble strings low too but like I said for most players it seems they like to bang on the bass strings so I don't push those, that and concern for back buzz which seems to be more of a thing with classical guitars.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:51 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I've not experienced back buzz ever from a nut slot being cut too low be it steel string acoustics, electrics or classicals, mandos or basses. What I have on occasion experienced is back buzz because of design and/or execution flaws. G strings on Fender Strat type necks are well known in the industry to not have enough break angle over a properly cut nut. This lack of break angle can be addressed easily AND the nut slot can be cut as low as desired for playability and decent intonation. One simple solution is to wind more than twice the normal winds on the G string tuner increasing break angle with no mods required.

The bass strings are always cut higher anyway and ham fisted folks just drive home the point as to why. We want more relief on the bass side too. Again no back buzz issues for as low as I take my bass strings and again the benefit of not forcing players to have to overcome more string tension than minimally necessary is improved intonation through less string stretch.

With this offered my view is that back buzz is not a concern when properly cutting nut slots. Sure it can occur and it can be addressed too and how depends on why. But on balance any stringed instrument headstock design and/or execution that prevented properly cut individual nut slots would be a poor design.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:54 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I should add that nut slots can have humps in the middle of the slot not visible to us. Or a nut slot can be cut at too shallow an angle.

I'm mentioning these things and others because there are lots of potential reasons for back buzz. Properly cutting nut slots very low is not generally one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:04 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
Hesh wrote:
... Dave makes these so don't ask me how he does it and he's too busy, so am I to really participate here much these days.


They are made of sheet brass folded over on itself and soldered. I'll try to remember to take some photos/measurements of mine and post it separately for anyone who may want to make one.


Thank You and that's what I recall too Steve. He likes brass for it's workability and doubles it and solders.

The one suggestion that I would offer for my torture tested one is to drill a small nail hole in the top to you can hang it on the wall.


I put some photos and measurements in a separate thread. And yes, Hesh, mine has a hole in it - we got the Cadillac version :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:43 pm 
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Quote:
I've not experienced back buzz ever from a nut slot being cut too low be it steel string acoustics, electrics or classicals, mandos or basses. What I have on occasion experienced is back buzz because of design and/or execution flaws. G strings on Fender Strat type necks are well known in the industry to not have enough break angle over a properly cut nut. This lack of break angle can be addressed easily AND the nut slot can be cut as low as desired for playability and decent intonation. One simple solution is to wind more than twice the normal winds on the G string tuner increasing break angle with no mods required.


Hesh, I think you are describing a buzz of the string between the nut and the tuner. I believe the back buzz mentioned was the string buzzing on the frets between the fretting finger and the nut. In my experience, this sympathetic back buzz only occurs on the 6th string (normally around frets 5-8), and can be eliminated by adding relief, or by raising the 6th string very slightly at the nut. The latter is preferred, since increasing relief affects all the strings.

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These users thanked the author John Arnold for the post: Pmaj7 (Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:11 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:47 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
I've not experienced back buzz ever from a nut slot being cut too low be it steel string acoustics, electrics or classicals, mandos or basses. What I have on occasion experienced is back buzz because of design and/or execution flaws. G strings on Fender Strat type necks are well known in the industry to not have enough break angle over a properly cut nut. This lack of break angle can be addressed easily AND the nut slot can be cut as low as desired for playability and decent intonation. One simple solution is to wind more than twice the normal winds on the G string tuner increasing break angle with no mods required.


Hesh, I think you are describing a buzz of the string between the nut and the tuner. I believe the back buzz mentioned was the string buzzing on the frets between the fretting finger and the nut. In my experience, this sympathetic back buzz only occurs on the 6th string (normally around frets 5-8), and can be eliminated by adding relief, or by raising the 6th string very slightly at the nut. The latter is preferred, since increasing relief affects all the strings.


Hey John and thanks. Yes I was describing the back buzz that can happen between the nut slot exit and the tuner and is usually sympathetic in nature. I completely agree with you on your take on back buzz between the fretted note and the nut.

We are not seeing this at least I can't recall that I ever have that resulted from a nut slot being cut too low. That's what I was addressing anyway, cutting nut slots very low. Certainly more relief is a solution as well as raising the nut slot for what you are describing. We would favor usually cutting nut slots low for playability and back buzz is not a concern that we have unless it happens and we are just not seeing what you are describing happen. I'm sure it does it's just not happening to us as we cut slots and set relief.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:55 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I wanted to add that when I say cutting a nut slot very low I am referring to using the methodology of fretting and holding between the 2nd and 3rd fret. Low to me means cut for playability very low but with zero sitar sound or buzzing if the string is struck open and hard. A nut slot that passes this test even though it's cut very low has not in my experience resulted in the back buzz that you are describing. I'm sure it can happen we just don't see it in our work as we work. Classical guitars may have this more noticeable since their nut slots can't be cut as low as we cut steel string guitars.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:57 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
I've not experienced back buzz ever from a nut slot being cut too low be it steel string acoustics, electrics or classicals, mandos or basses. What I have on occasion experienced is back buzz because of design and/or execution flaws. G strings on Fender Strat type necks are well known in the industry to not have enough break angle over a properly cut nut. This lack of break angle can be addressed easily AND the nut slot can be cut as low as desired for playability and decent intonation. One simple solution is to wind more than twice the normal winds on the G string tuner increasing break angle with no mods required.


Hesh, I think you are describing a buzz of the string between the nut and the tuner. I believe the back buzz mentioned was the string buzzing on the frets between the fretting finger and the nut. In my experience, this sympathetic back buzz only occurs on the 6th string (normally around frets 5-8), and can be eliminated by adding relief, or by raising the 6th string very slightly at the nut. The latter is preferred, since increasing relief affects all the strings.


Oh yeah I wanted to thank you too for the bridge plate material that you sent our way a few years ago with some of our mutual friends who took our courses. Many thanks!! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:19 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Had an additional thought as well.

We don't see back buzz as a result of our work but we do see it very rarely when someone comes in with an instrument with a back buzz. I would estimate that we see it more on mandolins than guitars too but again it's rare with us.

Not only as you said John is raising a nut slot and/or adding relief one approach there are others too. We tend to like to sneak up on things if the set-up is decent otherwise with minimalistic remedies by themselves or in conjunction with other remedies. We also like to know what worked so we only introduce one fix at a time.

The back buzz that you describe my approach would be if relief is decent and the nut slot does not buzz open and the nut slot is cut low enough, which they rarely are for us I would:

Back file the nut slot exploiting the ark of the string to gain 1 - 2 thou of additional string clearance over the first several frets. It's mechanical pencil time inside the nut slot to make a mark and be sure with back filing the nut slot to not cut the front most face of the nut slot any lower.

Additional winds on the offending string can accomplish the same thing but the steward has to be educated what we did and that they should continue this to avoid the offending buzz. More winds equals more break angle equals more string ark meaning more clearance over the first few frets.

Both of these in conjunction if one doesn't get it would be next.

Since I already like my relief and the only choice left is raising the nut slot I would prefer as mentioned to add relief and keep a well cut slot as is.

Anyway lots of approaches to "fretted" back buzz when it's encountered but my entire point here is that well cut very low nut slots are not a cause of fretted back buzz and we don't see this happening at all before the string starts sounding like a sitar open.

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