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 Post subject: Working with Ziricote
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Cocobolo
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First name: Raul
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Hi all,
I recently had a birthday and I want to build something special to commemorate the big 4-0...
I found this Ziricote... I've never worked with it and have found most people find it a PITA to work with. Chips, cracks, the whole nine yards. I recently got a Fox style bending machine along with a silicone heating pad.
I'm always up for a challenge, but am I just asking for trouble?
Also, I'd appreciate any input on the wood... I love the look of it, does anything concern you from looking at the picture? Questions I should ask the seller?
I should add, I want to build a cutaway....of course
Thanks for any advice!
RaúlImage

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:37 pm 
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I've only built one with Ziricote, but I love it as well. My first concern with the set pictured is it looks decently flatsawn- which may exacerbate ziricote's inherent problems.

When I built with it, I flooded all pieces with thin CA prior to bending/jointing. This helps with stability. It's a nasty process and adds some noxious fumes to the bending process (plus will require barriers between the wood and blanket/slats), but helps to fill any small internal issues you can't see.

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These users thanked the author Chris Ensor for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:54 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:57 pm 
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I'm another fan of ziricote. I've only built one guitar with it so far. The back and sides set I used presented none of the problems on your list, but maybe I was just lucky. The only thing that stood out was that the sides took more effort to bend on my hot pipe than other woods. I pre-treated the sides with SuperSoft and they bent without cracking or cupping.

Here's a photo of the wood I used to compare with the wood you have:

Attachment:
M parlor 6r2.jpg


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These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:01 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Cocobolo
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First name: Raul
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Chris Ensor wrote:
I've only built one with Ziricote, but I love it as well. My first concern with the set pictured is it looks decently flatsawn- which may exacerbate ziricote's inherent problems.

When I built with it, I flooded all pieces with thin CA prior to bending/jointing. This helps with stability. It's a nasty process and adds some noxious fumes to the bending process (plus will require barriers between the wood and blanket/slats), but helps to fill any small internal issues you can't see.
Thanks for your advice. How did you like your results? Was it worth the trouble?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Cocobolo
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J De Rocher wrote:
I'm another fan of ziricote. I've only built one guitar with it so far. The back and sides set I used presented none of the problems on your list, but maybe I was just lucky. The only thing that stood out was that the sides took more effort to bend on my hot pipe than other woods. I pre-treated the sides with SuperSoft and they bent without cracking or cupping.

Here's a photo of the wood I used to compare with the wood you have:

Attachment:
M parlor 6r2.jpg
WOW! That's gorgeous!
About 70% of what I've read online talks about those problems... The rest say they've bent like butter. SS is a product that seems to come up a lot for a successful bend.
I love the look of it!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:53 pm 
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I think I might build with ziricote for my own use, but never commercially...we've repaired too many cracks not to understand why the wood deserves its reputation.

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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:53 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:57 pm 
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I've only built one with Ziricote and was fortunate to have a set that bent like butter. Would love to use it again.

Thinned sides to approximately .080"
Light misting with water on both sides
Wrapped in kraft/butcher paper
Sandwiched between two metal bending slats
Heated my silicone blanket to roughly 300°F
Was patient with the preheat
Bend smoothly with no cupping/splitting or creasing.

Planing the back/sides to thickness was the only area I needed to exercise caution. Use a very sharp smoothing plane on a skewed angle or cabinet scraper as its very hard and almost crumbly. If my plane was the least bit dull I would get slight crumbly tear-out.

With a sharp plane or fresh cabinet scraper it finishes like glass.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



These users thanked the author dpetrzelka for the post (total 3): Pmaj7 (Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:52 pm) • guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:51 pm) • Ernie Kleinman (Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:41 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Last Name: Ortiz
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dpetrzelka wrote:
I've only built one with Ziricote and was fortunate to have a set that bent like butter. Would love to use it again.

Thinned sides to approximately .080"
Light misting with water on both sides
Wrapped in kraft/butcher paper
Sandwiched between two metal bending slats
Heated my silicone blanket to roughly 300°F
Was patient with the preheat
Bend smoothly with no cupping/splitting or creasing.

Planing the back/sides to thickness was the only area I needed to exercise caution. Use a very sharp smoothing plane on a skewed angle or cabinet scraper as its very hard and almost crumbly. If my plane was the least bit dull I would get slight crumbly tear-out.

With a sharp plane or fresh cabinet scraper it finishes like glass.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
That's beautiful!
How was it gluing?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 pm 
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It doesn't seem oily all (so that was not a concern), but on any wood with this hard of a surface, I usually wipe with naphtha to be sure there is no surface contamination before gluing. I used both hot hide glue and Titebond I without any issues.



These users thanked the author dpetrzelka for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:21 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:20 pm 
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guitarradTJ wrote:
Thanks for your advice. How did you like your results? Was it worth the trouble?


Well worth the insurance to flood it in my opinion (same goes for BRW and others that tend to crack with time). I'm happy with the results:

Image

Image


I used it for the B/S, bridge, fingerboard, and headstock overlays. I'll echo what Daniel said- it sure is crumbly. I found it unpleasant to carve for my bridge.

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These users thanked the author Chris Ensor for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:22 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:23 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Chris Ensor wrote:
guitarradTJ wrote:
Thanks for your advice. How did you like your results? Was it worth the trouble?


Well worth the insurance to flood it in my opinion (same goes for BRW and others that tend to crack with time). I'm happy with the results:

Image

Image


I used it for the B/S, bridge, fingerboard, and headstock overlays. I'll echo what Daniel said- it sure is crumbly. I found it unpleasant to carve for my bridge.
Sooo lovely... Thanks for your advice!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:14 am 
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I've built one and just closed the box on a second ( a commission) it bends OK, I bend it @ 295 and that seems plenty.. Cracks and splits easy until closed up then seems fine.. I don't flood with CA but do use a few extra side braces.. My first was for me and it is 4 years old no issues just left sitting on a a stand..

Kerry

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These users thanked the author kwerry for the post: guitarradTJ (Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:04 am)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:18 am 
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I had none of the problems expressed and did nothing differently than I have with mahogany or EIR.


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These users thanked the author Ben-Had for the post: guitarradTJ (Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:01 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:14 pm 
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I've built two. The first is 4 years old the second 3 years old, no issues with either one. Both sets were well-seasoned, no problems with splitting nor bending. These were steel string, but I'm considering a classical or two with Ziricote.

Attachment:
IMGP9163.jpg


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These users thanked the author Pat Foster for the post: guitarradTJ (Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:26 pm)
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