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Dust collector http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50771 |
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Author: | bcombs510 [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Dust collector |
The other thread about dust masks is making me think I’ll likely be dead in a week, maybe two. Anyway, let’s say I had 1500-1800 to spend on a dust collector. In that range what should I expect? 3HP? Cyclone? Seems like there are only a few brands at the usual woodworking outlets. Any brands that you like in particular? I’m thinking it’s time to retire the harbor freight special. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Have you read any of Bill Pennz's stuff? Anyway, yeah you want a cyclone with really good filters. ClearVue and Oneida are good brands. Prepare to spend nearly as much on ducting as you do the collector. I ended up with a 5hp Oneida with MERV 16 filters. The difference it made to shop and house air quality is nothing short of amazing... |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
And I still run the HEPA 24/7... |
Author: | SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
I do a lot of switching hoses but the dust deputy is really a pretty good little dust collector! I know it isn’t heavy duty or anything but it does work Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Yes it does, I have three. Thing is, it's attached to a shop vac which generally cannot deliver enough airflow to pick up after big tools such as edge sanders, tablesaws, etc. Also, put a HEPA filter on your shop vac... |
Author: | doncaparker [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Brad— I use a Clear Vue, and it’s awesome. A few thoughts: 1. A Clear Vue is made of plastic, and their blast gates are made of plastic, too, so going with 6” sewer and drain thin wall plastic pipe is a natural fit, as opposed to metal pipe. If you buy the pipe and fittings at a plumbing wholesale shop, you save a LOT of money. 2. It is worth the trouble to modify machine ports to 6” instead of 4” wherever you can, and run 6” all the way to the machine. Where you can’t, still run 6” as far as you can, then split out to two 4” connections. Catching the dust at the source is key, and bigger pipe and ports take better advantage of the power of the Clear Vue to do that. 3. Buy great filters, as recommended by Clear Vue. 4. These things are loud. You can do things about that, but that’s a bit of extra work. 5. You need an electrician to help with the installation. I’m a very happy Clear Vue owner. If you think about buying one, let me know if I can help answer any specific questions for you. |
Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
I upgraded to a 5hp Oneida a while back. Huge difference. Use the largest recommended piping and if using Oneida they will suggest a pattern for the ductwork if sent a shop diagram. I think that a good dust collection system is the best money you can spend in lutherie. |
Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Terence Kennedy wrote: I upgraded to a 5hp Oneida a while back. Huge difference. Use the largest recommended piping and if using Oneida they will suggest a pattern for the ductwork if sent a shop diagram. I also installed an Oneida system, the dust collection system is by far the most expensive tool in my shop and worth every penny. I also built a downdraft table and have a large Jet dust scrubber on the ceiling.
I think that a good dust collection system is the best money you can spend in lutherie. |
Author: | Jules [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
bcombs510 wrote: Anyway, let’s say I had 1500-1800 to spend on a dust collector. In that range what should I expect? 3HP? Cyclone? The type of DC is easy - cyclone. The size depends on what's in your workshop and how you want to work. Let's say you have a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, router table, miter saw, jointer and planer. You could roll around a portable DC (or use a long hose) and hook it up to each machine but a stationary setup would be more practical with all those machines. The latter would require a larger DC, well, maybe... I've read a lot of comments about 5 HP DCs with 6"-8" ducting running through the shop with less than the number of machines mentioned above. I bought a 3/4 HP Delta drum-type DC years ago and ran 4" PVC through the shop to feed a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, router table, miter saw, jointer and planer. Personally, I feel it has worked fine. Suction improved when I ducted the exhaust outside. But you have to figure for make-up air when you duct outside. When the shop was in the basement of my house, I just let the DC pull from the rest of the house. Now that it's in a fairly well-sealed garage, I have to open a door or window to run the DC. I converted the drum setup to a cyclone with a shop-made add on. After the conversion, substantially more dust and chips made it into the collection drum. Only the finest of dust is blown outside. The change was pretty impressive. The DC, cyclone add on, ducting and blast gates was probably in the $600 range. The DC was bought in the 90s for around $400. I ran that for 15 or so years before converting it to a cyclone. When I moved, I changed the PVC to 4" HVAC ducting and switched out the plastic blast gates with self cleaning metal gates. I can't see why I would need anything larger. The only tool I don't have in the above list now is a jointer. I also have a Dust Deputy connected to an old Craftsman shop vac. I use that for cleanup or for when I don't want to pull hot Florida summers into my shop. |
Author: | Heath Blair [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
When I was looking for a dust collector a number of years ago, I had a similar budget to yours. I looked at all of the usual suspects and, like with most of my large machines, was priced out of just about everyone’s tools, except for Grizzly. All of my large tools are from Grizzly and I’ve been really happy with those purchases. For your budget, a 5hp cyclone just isn’t going to be feasible, no matter the brand. I’m thinking that those 5hp units are likely 3-phase, as well, but don’t quote me on that. Remember, you have to wire for a 220V machine. That costs money. I bought a 2hp cyclone from Grizzly. I want to say it was around 1200-1300 bucks. I built a stand for it out of angle iron and it looks exactly like the stand they sell. I saved a hundred bucks doing that myself. I went to a local HVAC retailer and bought enough 6” and 4” heavy gauge spiral pipe, along with the necessary fittings for a couple hundred dollars. I can’t remember, but I may have received a discount on that stuff because I knew the guy. The rest, blast gates, flexible hose, etc., also from Grizzly. In the end, that will probably put you about where you want to be in your budget. It’s a fine machine and will collect everything you need it to collect from all, but the largest dust producers (large wide belts sanders, etc.), as long as you obey all of the length of run/number of fittings rules for dust colllection. It is not HEPA, but again, that’s really expensive. I believe mine filters down to 0.2 micron. Maybe the newer ones are even better, I don’t know. Just be honest with yourself about how much you can spend and what you’re going to be using it for. Good luck! |
Author: | doncaparker [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
I think it important to separate two things: nuisance and health risk. Most dust collection systems are going to make dealing with the nuisance of chips and large particle dust easier. But protecting your health means protecting yourself against small particle dust. You need a dust collection protocol that aggressively captures dust at the source, as much as possible, to have a meaningful impact on the amount of small particle dust in your shop’s air. And that system needs to either filter for very small particles or spit the dust outside, which, as a Julie says, can cause other problems with environmental controls. The suggestion to read articles by Bill Pentz is a good suggestion. Reading that stuff is what sent me down the Clear Vue, 6” pipe and modified ports, path. The handheld power tools that capture dust well as it is being made, like Festool products, are a good idea, too. Personal protection like decent respirators are a good idea. Trying to use methods that make less dust is a good thing. Waking up in a few years with a serious respiratory problem is something we should all try hard to avoid. |
Author: | Jules [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Being curious, I checked out the Oneida website for DCs under $1500. Their 1.5HP Mini Gorilla looks pretty decent. If you don't want to duct, it's portable but you'd need plenty of floor space to roll it around. It has a HEPA MERV 16+ filter. The 5" inlet should be enough for all but the largest machines and the price is $1150. Mount it on the wall, add a flexible hose to the drum for easy cleaning and a remote switch. Oneida does custom shop planning (no idea of the cost) but this is the results of going that route. It gives some idea of what's involved in installing the ductwork. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKujEukiSBQ |
Author: | CarlD [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
After years of dragging a 3/4hp Jet from tool to tool I got a 3hp grizzly cyclone that I mounted to an exterior wall of the shop and built a 4X8 shed enclosure around it. I did this because these things are LOUD! 7" ducting thru the wall and down to most tools reducing to 4" for blast gates and tool hookup. I cut a hole in the wall for return air with AC filters. Next upgrade will be HEPA filters. I did the return air because the Grizzly was sucking the conditioned air out of the shop from the evap cooler or the woodstove (would suck the exhaust smoke back into the shop too). I use the shop vac and respirators too but this is much better than it was. |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Grizzly does not have a good rep as far as D.C. goes. Cheap us good sometimes, but maybe not for dust collection. I know John Hall was very unimpressed with his as he had to replace filters way too often, at quite the extra expense. |
Author: | Heath Blair [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
meddlingfool wrote: Grizzly does not have a good rep as far as D.C. goes. Cheap us good sometimes, but maybe not for dust collection. I know John Hall was very unimpressed with his as he had to replace filters way too often, at quite the extra expense. I’m curious what you’re basing your opinion on. I’ll let John Hall speak for himself, but I’m guessing that dude slings some dust. I’ve had my Grizzly cyclone dust collector for a number of years. I don’t remember when I bought it, but I think it was the first year it was offered, actually. So somewhere in the 8-10 year range. It doesnt run nearly as much as lot of people run theirs, I’m sure, but I can’t think of one single negative thing to say about it. One thing I forgot to mention earlier, if you are planning on keeping your DC inside, make sure it will fit under your ceiling! Some of those units are tall! |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Just on research I did long ago when looking into mine. The complaint re the grizzlies was that too much material that should have been collected in the hopper made it to the filters, ending their life prematurely. ClearVue and Oneida are both designed better in that regard, as I recall. It's been a long while (4-5-6 years) since I was focused on that. Amother brand I nearly went with was Penn State Indusries... |
Author: | bionta [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
On this topic there are a variety of solutions and most people seem happy with the dust collection they have, even if it doesn't seem to meet the most stringent requirements posited by others. I just want to add one suggestion. Buy a particle counter like a Dylos meter (https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no ... k%3Adylos+). Then decide how much airflow you want to buy. The particle counter might seem like a large expense which doesn't actually make your air any cleaner - so why bother, right? Maybe just buy the most dust collection you can afford or fit into your space and call it good enough. But the dangerous particles are invisible so without some way to get data you don't know whether any setup is really keeping you safe. If it's not keeping you safe, whatever money you spent was wasted (except for saving some sweeping). Just my 2 cents but worth every penny you paid for it. :^) |
Author: | CarlD [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Mine works fine too. There is only one filter and there is a periodic cleaning process that keeps it good. 3 years and haven't needed to change it yet. A particle counter is on the want list...... |
Author: | jac68984 [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Dust collector |
If you can vent outside and don’t mind additional piecemeal work, you can build a nice cyclone system cheaper than buying a prefab unit. The Grizzly has a 7 in intake. You’re basically just buying the unit for the blower, which is fine because those felt bags kick out lots of the bad fine dust. You can take the motor off he stand and wall mount it. 6 inch piping can be ran from the cyclone. That’s a nice setup for around $700. Tack on a few hundred more if you cannot vent outside and need some canister filters (Grizzly sells the same motor and configuration with double canister filters for $700 and some change I think or you could get some from Winn Environmental). Just a thought to help you get a decent cyclone in your budget. In my opinion, a nice 3 hp unit is the minimum for a cyclone system that will have permanent ducting runs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Author: | Haans [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
I've had the Oneida since day one. Will pull through 6" pipe runs and connections to 4" elbows and gates 20' and handle the thickness sander. It does need to be isolated from the shop though, it is loud. A tip made clear to me by both Oneida and Rockler is to ground all plastic PVC elbows with connections to metal piping inside and out to eliminate spark from static electricity. I also ran 14 gage stranded through any flexible tubing connections to machines. You can see the wire running inside and out between the PVC and the metal ducting. |
Author: | Michaeldc [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
+1 on the Dylos particle counter. You can't truly rate how effective your DC system is with out one. You will likely be unpleasantly surprised when you do your first test. I've got a 6 year old wall mounted 3hp Oneida with a merv16 filter which I love! I may have gone with a Clear Vue but my ceilings weren't tall enough (93-1/2"). Best, M |
Author: | gregorio [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Interesting thread. My thoughts are you would best be served with a designed system (dc/cyclone). Throwing a cyclone into an existing system will work, but the effect would be random. Airflow though the cyclone is the critical part. VFD / pot equipped would be ideal, then you could easily fine tune the system, provided the fan power is adequate. Not a professional on the subject, but I do deal with DC's, cyclones, and air classifiers on a daily basis. Would be interesting when I get my own system, because I have the equipment to analyze what the system captures. The particle indicator is a good idea to monitor what is making it to atmosphere. I was able to pick up a variable speed, 650cfm, variable speed until for a good price (free). It's a mobile unit, still thinking about the right use for it. |
Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Haans brought up the idea of grounding a plastic pipe system. If you are trying to decide whether to go with metal or plastic pipe, and the potential need for grounding is a factor making you lean toward metal, know that there is disagreement out there about whether grounding is really needed in this specific application. The thing that grounding is supposed to deal with is static electricity building up and releasing a spark, a spark which could ignite the dust shooting through the pipe. However, as I said, there is disagreement over whether the specific disaster that is being averted is statistically an actual peril to be guarded against. I did not ground my system. It has been in place for a number of years, and I give it light use (I’m a hobbyist). I don’t generate enough static electricity in my system to even cause nuisance static electricity (finger shocks, hair standing up, etc.) to build up, let alone the amount needed to generate a fire-starting spark. YMMV |
Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Had a Grizzly system and replaced it with Oneida can't begin to tell you the difference Onidea is head and shoulders above Grizzly. I also used plastic pipe but replaced that to metal. Even with grounding the plastic would build a static charge. IF your going to do this do it right the first time. Plastic is fine for drops but ground it well. The filter is also as important as the collector. Onieda has different offerings and again head and shoulders above Grizzly. I was lucky to get a year off a grizzly filter they would block up that fast for me. Onieda I get a few years . Choose wisely grasshopper. Cheap isn't always the best. I had a lot of Grizzly tools and they all had motor and switch issues. |
Author: | Kelby [ Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dust collector |
Brad, your post suggests you are worried about your health. If so, you're getting a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not looking to argue with people. But this is a science, and whether a system is capturing the dangerous particles (which are not visible) is more complex than whether someone subjectively feels their system is doing a good job. The science tells us that there is a certain amount of airflow necessary to capture the dangerous particles. There are formulas that will tell you exactly what kind of system you need to generate that airflow at the tool. Bill Pentz's site has a static pressure calculator that will tell you exactly what system will work given your tools and shop layout. Things you will quickly learn from Bill's calculator: (1) There's a big difference between a system that keeps the shop looking clean and a system that keeps your lungs healthy; and (2) There's just no way to capture the unhealthy stuff without a 5HP cyclone with a 15" impeller and 6" mains. But don't take my word for it -- plug your system into Bill's calculator and see for yourself. I had a 2-HP cyclone that kept my shop pretty clean. But if I worked all day in the shop, I would wheeze at night and have a few other symptoms. It was not a minor thing -- if my wife was out for the day, she would always be able to tell whether I had worked in the shop much based on my breathing. Since I upgraded to a 5HP ClearVue and made a few modifications to my ductwork based on what I found necessary based on Bill Pentz's calculator, I can work in the shop all day for days in a row without any symptoms. Math is your friend. Use the calculator. |
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