Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:24 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Red Oak and Ebonizing...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:58 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1905
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I am helping my friend and neighbor to build a guitar. He works with wood and has a large cash of red oak that he wants to use. We picked out some nicely quartered boards for B&S. The sides bent nicely and are in a L-00 mold. He asked about using red oak for a fingerboard and bridge. I had seen recently where white oak was ebonized and used for a fingerboard and bridge and thought I would ask you guys what you thought about using red oak for a fingerboard and bridge. Also, I understand that to ebonize wood you use in a solution of vinegar that has had steel wool dissolved in it. Is there a formula for the amount of steel wool to vinegar? How is the solution applied? ...brushing? ...soaking? ...how long?

So,
1) red oak for fingerboard and bridge...? and
2) ebonizing process steps...?

Thanks,
Steve

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:23 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1905
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I just found this article...

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tech ... izing_wood

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
I'm not sure that red oak has the tannin content that white oak does. It's the tannin's that react with the iron to color it black. It's not really a stain per se but a chemical reaction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:08 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:01 pm
Posts: 1104
Location: Winfield, IL.
Hey Steve,
You can use red oak for the fingerboard and bridge if you don't mind the huge pores.
Red oak takes to ebonizing better than most other woods. Just make up your vinegar steel wool solution (I use one 0000 pad to one pint white vinegar) and brush it on. The reaction will start in seconds.
As the author of that article you linked to pointed out, the color is not really black. I've gotten blues, reds, greens and other hints of color depending on the piece of wood. I think this may have something to do with mineral content of the tree or the soil it grew in but I'm no expert on that stuff. Most of my ebonized pieces have been furniture which are finished with a satin clear. The color effect is diminished greatly with the use of both solvent based and water based clears. The finish looks black in all but direct light and I enjoy the flashes of color as it gives the piece another subtle dimension. The authors Q-bark tea process for a deeper black works very well and would be my choice for a finger board or bridge.

Just remember, the beauty in this finish is only skin deep so any wear or damage will show the raw wood. Repairs are super easy so I would rate that a minor concern.

Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:23 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 2712
First name: ernest
Last Name: kleinman
City: lee's summit
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 64081
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I/ve used a black NGR stain on red oak , it has a bluish cast. For native wood fingerboards, that can be dyed we use persimmon and osage orange, and locust, which can all be dyed. I would keep an eye on that vinegar /steel wool soloution and leave it outside at this time of the year , you can also substitute the vinegar soloution for an oil based ebony stain from minwax , but it will give a more ol timey look to the wood IMHO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:38 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:12 pm
Posts: 3290
First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
In my experience red oak responds well to this treatment. Any grey or bluish cast you might get should go away when you oil the board. Test some red oak scrap, you will likely be able to skip the steps to add tannin and go straight to the iron acetate. Remember that you will need to do the ebonizing to the final surface as it doesn't penetrate very deep and in time the black layer of wood on a fretboard will wear away in spots.

I just stuck one pad of steel wool in a gallon jug of vinegar from the dollar store and have been using it for years. You don't need to worry too much about the recipe. . .

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:43 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I would be wary of an oak fret board unless it is finished ala Fender...... Reason being IME oak is more prone to raise splinters than anything we normally would use for a FB.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:42 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:49 pm
Posts: 403
First name: Fred
City: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I used white oak for a fretboard, pore filled with CA. No issues with it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:36 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:01 pm
Posts: 1887
Location: UK
I've done the iron acetate solution on oak fretboards and it works well although it only strikes to a minimal depth. That may or may not be a problem. If you pore fill as well it can be very difficult to distinguish it from ebony - at least from a distance of a few feet.
I've also tried soaking walnut 2 mm thick bandings in the solution for a few weeks and the black colour goes very deep, virtually full depth. I'm trying the same with an oak fretboard finished to dimensions. I doubt it will penetrate deep but 0.5 mm or so will be sufficient.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:39 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 251
First name: Mike
Last Name: Spector
City: ORANGE
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 77632
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
This is a dreadnaught I built from a oak table I found thrown away. I think it was red oak. Used vinegar with rusty nails, steel wool, and whatever had rust for the "ebonized" finish.
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:44 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 251
First name: Mike
Last Name: Spector
City: ORANGE
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 77632
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Also, I put the rusty stuff in a jar with the vinegar covering it by a couple of inches. DON'T seal the jar. poke some holes in the lid to let off the gas and leave outside for a few days, then, with rubber gloves, just rub on a test piece to see what you've got.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:55 am
Posts: 566
First name: Bob
Last Name: Shanklin
City: Windsor
State: ON
Country: Canada
You can add tannin to any wood that you want to ebonize. Get yourself some Quebracho bark extract from any taxidermy supply and mix up a tea and brush a few wet coats into the wood, then when dry, brush on your vinegaroon solution . Presto-chango, ebonized wood. I got my extract from https://www.vandykestaxidermy.com/BKT10-P3852.aspx. Good article on the using the bark extract here, https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood. Works really well, and total penetration as it is a chemical change, and not a dye.

Bob
ps. If you use steel-wool to make your vinegaroon solution, wash it well in soapy water first. Steel wool is coated with fine oil when new.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:17 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2082
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I made the mistake of leaving a plane laying down on freshly planed red oak overnight. Came back the next day - and I found a beautiful black imprint of the plane on the board.... :o :o.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:21 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
truckjohn wrote:
I made the mistake of leaving a plane laying down on freshly planed red oak overnight. Came back the next day - and I found a beautiful black imprint of the plane on the board.... :o :o.


I switched from steel pipe clamps for panel glue ups to aluminum because of the blue stain on oak from glue squeeze out reaction.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:38 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:55 am
Posts: 566
First name: Bob
Last Name: Shanklin
City: Windsor
State: ON
Country: Canada
Alex, did you use any of the Quebracho bark extract I gave you last fall at the Exotic Woods Guitar Day?

Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:14 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Bob Shanklin wrote:
Alex, did you use any of the Quebracho bark extract I gave you last fall at the Exotic Woods Guitar Day?

Bob


Not yet, Bob, but I was thinking about doing some test pieces when I get a lull (ha!) in the action.
I'm going to treat some Q sawn white oak with Quebracho, and then apply some household strength ammonia to see what happens. I'm hoping for a dark, fumed look, that will go deep into the wood. Of course, I might get a green colour, instead! I'll report on any results!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Marc, Melt in the Sun, wbergman and 41 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com