Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Curious about sunbursts
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50751		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Curious about sunbursts
I've always like sunburst guitars. I think J-45's are really cool looking guitars, but I've been seeing a lot of contemporary guitars lately that do the sunburst thing and it seems like it's in a whole different league. Maybe I can put it another way, it's almost like my impression of Gibson sunbursts on most J-45's I've seen is that it's a nice color(s), but it's like it something that sits on top of the guitar and works despite the wood underneath, while some of these new sunbursts really seem to accentuate the wood underneath and from an aesthetic point of view the finish seems to work in a more holistic way with the whole guitar. What are they doing differently compared to the traditional Gibson sunburst. Is it just a matter of different color choices?

This rockbridge guitar is a good example of what I'm talking about...
Author:  Ruby50 [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Below is a shot of 3 Nick Lucas' (Nick Luci??). I got it off the innerweb and if I recall they are a 1928, 1931, and 1937. The first two sunbursts are hand-applied directly to the wood, while the third one on the right is sprayed. I think sunbursts have evolved to look more like the early ones. Some of Martin's attempts at a "shade top" have been really awful.

Of course, nothing like a 20's Gibson sunburst - this mandolin belongs to Haans.

The instrument you showed is quite beautiful


Ed
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
I'm no expert, but there is a noticeable difference between applying dye to the wood prior to finishing with a clear coat versus putting color in the finish material and "painting" on the color that way. I much prefer the look of applying dye to the wood, then applying a clear finish over that.
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Yeah I agree, the hand applied sunbursts win for sure (in my opinion of course).

When applying dye straight to the wood how do you get the colors to fade nicely into each other without lines?
Author:  Freeman [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Conor, we have been thru all of this before and several people who know a whole lot more than me have chimed in about how they do it. We've talked about the best dyes to use to make stains, how to apply, how to finish over them. Haans and Brian do this every day, I've done it a few times.

A great reference is Roger Siminoff who has made an extensive study of Loar era instruments and has describe his method of hand applying stains. Dan Earlewine tells what he thinks they were doing back then - people are kind of reverse engineering the process. When I've done it I have applied several thinned coats, blending them together, lightly sanding the interface and then applying some more. You can also shoot stain with an airbrush on small areas or a detail gun for larger ones.

You can also tint your finish and do the burst in the lacquer coats. You can combine the two methods - use some stain to pop certain parts of the grain, then highlight it with tinted finish.

Here is my beginners 'burst on an F5 clone that I built a few years ago following Siminoff's instructrions. SM Colortone dyes in alcohol, wiped into the wood. This one has an early waterborn lacquer finish, there are some witness lines.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Remember that I don't have a clue what I'm doing, but that doesn't stop me
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Freeman wrote:
Conor, we have been thru all of this before and several people who know a whole lot more than me have chimed in about how they do it. We've talked about the best dyes to use to make stains, how to apply, how to finish over them. Haans and Brian do this every day, I've done it a few times.


Sorry Freeman, my initial post wasn't meant to be a how do you do this kind of post, I know we've talked about dyes and various other finishing things several times now. I was simply commenting on a trend I've noticed with more contemporary builders lately, and wondering why the sunburst on a J-45 that's hanging on the wall at a big box store and some of these other builders look so different, aside from the color difference.

I got a little distracted with one of the responses which lead to a how do you do this question. ;)

I've read Dan Erlewine's book on finishing, but I've been taking in so much information over the past year I'm sure some of it is falling out...

I'll make sure to look into the Simonoff stuff too.
Author:  gregorio [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
hello connor. Nothing to really add, but I am always reminded of this video when it comes to hand finish/dye/burst.
http://condino.com/skoolin/
mind you its on maple...but perhaps the technique applies.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
I started out hand rubbing sunbursts, but at the time, it quickly became a race to see who could make the best sunbursts, so we all started airbrushing them.

Image

You can find more info on sunbursts here:

viewtopic.php?f=10128&t=50074
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Thanks for the link, Haans!
I never thought of airbrushing dye directly to wood.
This is something I will try.
Regards,
Dan
Author:  Jules [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
The only experience I have to go on tells me that in order to get the grain to show through the black border on a sunburst is to apply the dye before the finish. When I was doing this Strat I wanted the grain to show through the black. I did the usual black dye sanded back before applying red dye.
Image

Then a light spray with black on the border.
Image

And this is after the lacquer
Image

But if you looked at it from the side, you can see the grain through the black
Image
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
gregorio wrote:
hello connor. Nothing to really add, but I am always reminded of this video when it comes to hand finish/dye/burst.
http://condino.com/skoolin/
mind you its on maple...but perhaps the technique applies.


wow! thanks.
Author:  DannyV [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Good info. Hanns is the man on the subject.

IMHO the biggest difference in look and technique is whether you apply the dye to bare wood or on top of some sort of sealer. On top of sealer is much easier but usually far less dramatic. Especially on figured (Maple) woods.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
I did one Hand rubbed sunburst, and did a lot of research before attempting. Youtube has a few really good videos on hand rubbed sunbursts. At the end, I just went for it, and was happy how it came out.
Glenn
Attachment:
IMG_6304.jpg
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Glenn LaSalle wrote:
I did one Hand rubbed sunburst, and did a lot of research before attempting. Youtube has a few really good videos on hand rubbed sunbursts. At the end, I just went for it, and was happy how it came out.
Glenn
Attachment:
IMG_6304.jpg



That's really pretty!
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Glenn, you should be proud of that burst. It is really good for the first one.
Of the 3 supposed Gibsons, the worst is on the right and it is horrid. The object of a good sunburst is to avoid the "bullseye" look...looks better when it is more of a vignette.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Here's one I did recently-sprayed dye in lacquer over lacquer-I personally like this look over the ones applied directly to the wood.




Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  sdsollod [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Brad, I agree with you and that is a really nice burst. Here's one I did the same way. Haans won't like it. He might even say it's horrid. I always think of the OLF as a place where you get support and encouragement. I don't mind (and encourage) constructive criticism, but I don't think we need to belittle or insult people. ...just sayin'
Author:  Haans [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Steve, I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way. I belittled or insulted no one on the board that I am aware of. Criticizing a Corporation is a different story. If you have seen some of the Gibson "sunbursts" that I have, you would probably agree that some of them (mid '60's-'70's comes to mind) were pretty dang ugly.
I have nothing against folks tinting lacquer to achieve a sunburst, but it was not the preferred way to have done it myself. As others have admitted, the best way to achieve clarity is to dye the wood and finish clear over it. It does require more skill and there is no room for error.
Perhaps "horrid" was not the best word to use. Of the three instruments pictured, I preferred the left and middle.
In the end, opinions are expressed here, nothing else.
I don't believe in mind readers...
Author:  sdsollod [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
No hard feelings. I thought you were referring to someones build they were probably proud of. I have no problem with criticism of a manufacturer. You certainly have the experience and have done some incredible work. I am a just a serious amature. Sometimes there can be misunderstandings in print when you can't have a live conversation. Sorry for the confusion.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
I prefer sunbursts with a long transition, with solid black only at the very edge. I have only done the tops (to hide some CA discoloration) and applied the dye in a small amount of lacquer (as a binder) over a couple of sealer coats of lacquer. I think this is easier for a "first timer" and if I screwed it up would allow me to strip it off and start over.
I agree with Haans - the burst on the far right Gibson doesn't appeal to me. There isn't much of a transition area, the pickguard is sprayed over, and it looks lopsided. But we all have different tastes and opinions, and while I won't go out of my way to insult an individual's work I do value people's honest opinion - especially if they give their reasons for it. Criticism often reflects a person's personal taste and I view it in that light.
Author:  Haans [ Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious about sunbursts
Nah, 'nuff said.
I know it's a bit different for guitars and that some like a black solid color edge, but that was not where mandolins went. We needed to see grain in even the darkest brown or red. Suppose that came from violins. They were also not 3 color bursts, only two color, again, likely taken from violin vignettes.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/