Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:35 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:42 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
So it’s coming up on a year now of me being in a space that I acquired through family.
It’s an office space in a really old 3 story factory building that used to be an old trap making company about 100 years ago. The upper floors are completely wide open and I may use that space eventually if I need to.

Winters in upstate New York can be quite cold and extremely dry (as some of you may know)

I noticed very quickly that the room I occupy is in serious need of climate control.

During the frigid 20 to -20 degree temperatures my shop would reach a balmy high of 40 from the waist up. About 30 from the waist down. Humidity wouldn’t rise above 20% with a small humidifier running.

The unit heating the area is an old 1980’s through wall heater/ air conditioner.

Needless to say, building guitars is never gonna happen in that condition!

So hears what I’m thinking of doing. Any suggestions/comments/tips etc are very welcomed.

Acquire another heating unit...anyone have any suggestions?

I’m planning on pulling the walls off (two layers of 1980’s luan and older 3” T and G
Slats beneath that and either blowing foam insulation or fiberglass R19 or something higher.

Also using “great stuff” brand expanding foam maybe for along the floors behind the baseboards and other drafty places.

Also, I’ll probably want to blow insulation on the other side of the drop ceiling as well.

When I initially acquired the place I tore the carpet up, put a layer of roofing felt down and cut 12” planks from Poplar plywood.

Needless to say...the place is quite drafty, uncomfortable to work in and bad for wood lol

I’d like to stay on the cheap side of things if I can but if I can’t I’ll just have to do what I can.

Thanks for listening to me ramble. Hope I can get some input here.

Happy building.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:45 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Here are some pics before populating it with tools ImageImageImage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:13 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2700
"I’d like to stay on the cheap side of things if I can"

Wall off a small room for hand tools and a work bench, plus the wood for the project you are working on and heat it with an oil filled electric radiator style heater (least dust sensitive). Let the machine tool side go cold and dress appropriately when working in there.
2nd option - vacation in Florida in the winter months. :lol:



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post (total 2): jack (Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:54 am) • geetarman77 (Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:36 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:43 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 3561
Well if you can afford it, spray foam insulation is really quite good. That room is not terribly big so it shouldn't be too difficult. My shop is smaller and is a converted barn. A well built barn though. Spray foam all around and mini-split heating and cooling. It was a lot of money up front but I can run a simple dehumidifier in the summer and a small humidifier in the winter and easily control it. We get a few weeks out of the year that get below 20 degrees down to 0. So I have a small DeLongie plug in electric heater for those days. The room is incredibly efficient.

I like Clay's idea of separation of rooms and in fact it reminds me of my old shop where all the poser tools were outside under a roof. So yeah I had to plan a lot to avoid things like resawing in the winter time. The other bonus of having a seperate room for things like that is you keep the dust out of your work space.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:45 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 1231
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
"poser tools" laughing6-hehe I'm guessing there are some who have those kind of tools, but I doubt you're one of them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:20 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 1598
First name: Joey
Last Name: Holliday
City: Pamplin
State: Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 23958
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Good suggestions, it doesn't get that cold here in VA but I use an oil filled heater like the ones mentioned above in my garage and it does alright. I can usually keep it between 50-70 through the winter. I don't run it 24/7 though and it does take a while to heat up. For quick heat I use kerosene for about 30 minutes to an hour to warm up the space quickly before I start working or as I do some organization/cleaning. Then I turn it off once up to temp and the electric heater is usually warmed up by then and does a decent job of holding the temp.

I do notice some HVAC vents and I would board those off and insulate them as well. The doors look a little on the light side too. Maybe look at goodwill or something for some exterior doors to really seal it off in there, floor sweeps etc.

I'm also in the process of adding a split unit to my shop, more for cooling though. Check out https://www.heatandcool.com/ if you go that route. My HVAC guy owns his own company and he says he can't compete with their prices. Just find a good HVAC guy to do the install and you may be able to get it done for under $2K depending on the size of the space and what you need BTU wise, I'm looking at just over a grand but I know the guy. Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:27 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I could certainly separate space.

When you walk into my front door there is a mud room area (about 8’x5)

The next door leads into my main shop area. That’s one first pic.

That other door (without the door) leads into a 14x8ish other room. Off of that is the bathroom.

In the way back is a vault. It’s like 6x8 and 14’ high. Made of concrete. It goes all the way up through 3 floors. It’s pretty bad ass really. That’s where I’ve been storing my guitar sets. It’s the only place that’s constant.

Here’s a pic of the upstairs. The pic doesn’t do it justice really Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:32 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 3561
I take what I said back, that is a huge space :)

I think breaking it up is a good idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:28 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 1828
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
That roof looks unsafe. Leaking and low spots. One column is sagging into the floor. I am a PE and have to raise the safety concern. You need to have someone qualified take a look at it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
That’s not the roof. That’s the floor of the upper level.

The building may look unsafe but it surely isn’t . Image

That’s not where I’ll be doing any woodworking.

...unless of course i need the space for production. Lol.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:23 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 am
Posts: 455
Geez man that’s a lot of room


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:19 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:25 pm
Posts: 7179
Location: United States
I would definitely consider having someone come in and spray foam in the exterior walls, and possibly the ceiling and floor. The tighter you can get it, the easier it will be to control the humidity and temperature. You will have to seal it up pretty good though.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:50 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Don Williams wrote:
I would definitely consider having someone come in and spray foam in the exterior walls, and possibly the ceiling and floor. The tighter you can get it, the easier it will be to control the humidity and temperature. You will have to seal it up pretty good though.

So...you think opening the walls, laying r-15 unfaced, a layer of poly, rock on all 4 walls and a few cans of “great stuff” won’t be enough?

You say tight. Does the room need to be able t “breathe” a little to prevent any moisture in the walls from forming?

The room I’m going to insulate is 15x18 with 7’ 9” to the drop ceiling. Which I’m considering reinforcing and laying down bats of insulation?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:06 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3468
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
If it were my space, I would build a room within the room - four walls, floor and ceiling.
The space as it is will be very difficult to properly insulate with air infiltration from above, below, the walls, and windows.
Building a separate room will give you a thermal break from the rest of the building that will be easier to heat, cool, and control RH. It would be more expensive, but if you are planning to be there for a while, it might be worth it.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:47 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 80
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Alex Kleon wrote:
If it were my space, I would build a room within the room - four walls, floor and ceiling.
The space as it is will be very difficult to properly insulate with air infiltration from above, below, the walls, and windows.
Building a separate room will give you a thermal break from the rest of the building that will be easier to heat, cool, and control RH. It would be more expensive, but if you are planning to be there for a while, it might be worth it.

Alex

May be worth doing but I don’t want to lose space either.

Is it really that hard to keep a shop regulated?

This is frustrating to say the least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:27 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3468
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
geetarman77 wrote:
Alex Kleon wrote:
If it were my space, I would build a room within the room - four walls, floor and ceiling.
The space as it is will be very difficult to properly insulate with air infiltration from above, below, the walls, and windows.
Building a separate room will give you a thermal break from the rest of the building that will be easier to heat, cool, and control RH. It would be more expensive, but if you are planning to be there for a while, it might be worth it.

Alex

May be worth doing but I don’t want to lose space either.

Is it really that hard to keep a shop regulated?

This is frustrating to say the least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Having all the space but not being able to regulate heat, cooling, and RH, will make using the work space very frustrating. Making a room that is comfortable to work in, and where you can do all the RH sensitive operations will more than make up for the loss of square footage. You can use the unregulated space for machine operations, and keep dust out of your work area.
Having control of RH doesn't do any good if you have extremes of temperature.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:03 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 1487
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I love having a two-part shop. All clean and warm inside with a HEPA filter running and usually just brief moments outside in the Battle Zone. I have a big window on the door in between which is nice. The only upgrade I could think of would be an outdoor Quality Door that would swing both ways when my hands are full. Don't know if they make such a thing though.

It would be more convenient to just have one big shop that was climate controlled, but even with the best dust extraction I'm not sure if I could get the air as good as I have it now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:47 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
What Alex said. would be much simpler to have a wood storage and assembly room.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/dofthesea/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:33 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3468
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
For a point of reference, I build full custom kitchens in a 520sq.ft L shaped shop, while my climate controlled guitar room is 130sq.ft.
A good working layout is what makes any sized space work.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Advice?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:15 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:33 pm
Posts: 145
First name: David
Last Name: Riedmiller
State: WI
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I did what Alex did. I have a 30 x 40 foot steel building which has for 20 plus years been my wood shop. I dove into guitar building. So I chose a corner of the shop and built two additional walls creating an 150 square foot guitar build room. All the large machinery is out in the remaining area. I stripped the drywall off the old two walls and installed electrical. Re-insulated. Covered all the walls with 5 mil Visqueen plastic. Then added 1 inch ridgid foam insulation board. Bought and installed an insulated 3/0 exterior steel door with half glass which is the guitar room entry. It is very air tight. But it does have a window when additional air is needed. An air to air heat exchanger would be best for that though. It takes very little to heat cool and keep it at optimum humidity. Would something like this be practical for your situation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
"It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled"
Mark Twain


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com