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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 548
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Not to be too much of a contrarian, but back removal is not uncommon in repair work, and without binding or finish to fuss with, relatively uncomplicated. Back removal would give access to both back bracing and plenty of room to strip out the X brace and replace. We typically do not remove the top for rebracing or significant top repairs if the back is accessible, as the guitar less back can be loaded into the go-bar deck in the building mold to maintain shape and bracing removed, and any new bracing glued in using the deck.

But...Mr. Brentrup makes some excellent points, and an instrument whose purpose is to allow you to build skills by moving through the order of build to completion may better serve you by - you guessed it - being completed, rather than as a repair project. In fact, there is always the option to complete the instrument and come back in a few years to practice some repair work.

Re: the photos...this is why the scalloping caught my eye - on the long list of TBD repairs when I run out of things to do in the shop.


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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post: Bosco Birdswood (Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:40 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 1701
Location: United States
That may the worst buckling I have ever seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 1701
Location: United States
Bosco Birdswood wrote:
I guess I just wanted to ensure that anyone comment was basing their suggestion on real life experience rather than what they read somewhere on a forum once upon a time.


You can rely on experience based opinions given on this forum. Posers are exposed pretty quickly around here.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: Alex Kleon (Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:19 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2155
Looks like a rather weak cedar top - a good candidate for complete top replacement.
to the O.P.-
You will hear solutions proposed from people with different perspectives, some different but still valid. It is up to you to choose the one that you are most comfortable with.


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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 772
Location: Durango CO
First name: Dave
Last Name: Farmer
City: Durango
State: CO
Man there's a lot of subjects in this thread.
Haans wrote:
At some point you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it all to rip off the top and toss it, rip out the back brace and replace...or just fix a couple things and move on". I think fix and move on. You need experience more than a perfect guitar...that will come later.


I'm glad you guys are coming around to my thinking!

First, this is not a criticism in any way of Bosco's(?) work. It's his third instrument. many folks never get that far!

This guitar will not be mistaken for a professional quality instrument. It's value is in providing experience for a new builder.
It's value will likely be the same if he goes back and tries to rework things or goes forward and fixes them when/if they become a demonstrated problem. Adding bracing, if something starts going wrong, is easier than pulling the back and rebracing.

Bosco Birdswood wrote:
I’ve just ordered a separation knife...


I don't think there is a short cut learning to discern good advice from bad. many pro's are hacks and many amateurs would blow excellent pro's away. Advice that appears universal across the majority of responses might be a good place to focus.
I think most here would agree, removing a torrefied top with a separating knife sounds like trouble.

To ease the torque on a potentially weak top, you can set the neck angle and bridge to work with the stings on the low side over the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 548
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Big curl redwood...will be a fun repair.

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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:47 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:39 am
Posts: 36
Haans wrote:
How thick is the top?
Put a cap on the X brace...
At some point you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it all to rip off the top and toss it, rip out the back brace and replace...or just fix a couple things and move on". I think fix and move on. You need experience more than a perfect guitar...that will come later.


Thanks, Haans. You are of course right. When you say to put a cap on the X brace do you mean flatten the scallop and glue some brace stock on top of this? Is this better than putting a set of secondary braces out of sight parallel to the top arms of the X brace?


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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:21 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:39 am
Posts: 36
Clay S. wrote:
Not speaking as a professional (having never made my living as a luthier) but as a hobbyist who has for the past forty couple years built and repaired musical instruments, the scalloping of the upper arms of the X brace, although not ideal, is probably not a fatality. The tighter waist of the Grand Auditorium will add some support to this area and the X brace is by design a very strong construction.
If you do want to add some additional support to this area you could glue some braces behind and parallel to the upper arms of the X (similar to what Haans has suggested for the back brace). This could easily be done through the sound hole using small "C" clamps.
Removing the top (aren't torrified tops known to be somewhat brittle?) or the back of a guitar, unlike a violin is not commonly done unless it is going to be replaced with another.
The perspective of a Pro might be different - he not only has to make it work, but it also has to "look right".

Thanks, Clay. Yes, the torrified top is very brittle so you’re absolutely right in saying it would be better and easier to add braces if need be due to their easy access. I guess the question is do it do it as a precautionary measure anyway, or do I see how it holds under strong tension?

Here’s a view of the body without the back on for better perspective. Image


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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2155
If the guitar is going to be observable for a few months (does your friend live near by, or visit often) You could string it up and monitor it before adding extra braces (if needed).
If the guitar is going away I would add the extra braces now. They are cheap insurance, and would be in an area of the top that doesn't impact much of the sound of the guitar (IMO).



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: Bosco Birdswood (Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:50 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Brace repair
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:44 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2538
Bosco Birdswood wrote:
Haans wrote:
How thick is the top?
Put a cap on the X brace...
At some point you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it all to rip off the top and toss it, rip out the back brace and replace...or just fix a couple things and move on". I think fix and move on. You need experience more than a perfect guitar...that will come later.


Thanks, Haans. You are of course right. When you say to put a cap on the X brace do you mean flatten the scallop and glue some brace stock on top of this? Is this better than putting a set of secondary braces out of sight parallel to the top arms of the X brace?


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I see from the 2nd photo of the top bracing that you did cap the X.

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